View source for Computer Applications: A Dynamic Medium for Creative Thought by Alan Kay (1972)

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<subtitle id='00:00:00'> a certain English as a part of the</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:00:04'>seminar all participants men in plenary sessions on each of six papers computer</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:00:10'>applications a dynamic medium for creative thought by Alan Kay was a six</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:00:15'>paper discussed my name is Tom Barrett</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:00:23'>from the University of Wisconsin and our final paper of the day is entitled a</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:00:29'>dynamic medium for creative thought by dr. ellen cave was on my far left and we</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:00:37'>have a dynamic duo of discussants so</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:00:43'>you're slated dr. Yap Toolman from Indiana University</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:00:48'>and dr. Peter Rosenbaum from Columbia University our format is a little</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:00:54'>different because Alan is going to first</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:00:58'>of all give us a slide presentation of his paper and so we'll begin with that</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:01:03'>and come back to the discussion okay I'm</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:01:09'>going to try and just rush right through I made a few notes here in the interest</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:01:15'>of brevity first I have a few disclaimers first one is that our lab is</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:01:23'>Xerox is not a product development lab so anything that I may talk about should</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:01:28'>not be construed as future plans of Xerox and probably it is not it's hard</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:01:33'>the kinds of things that that we are</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:01:37'>doing there are two are just sort of what you might call freewheeling</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:01:42'>investigation the lab itself is set up a sort of a Bell Labs kind of place the</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:01:48'>people in our group aren't educators or psychologists most of us are the</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:01:53'>backgrounds are essentially former artists musicians writers and computer</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:01:57'>scientists and usually people fall into several of those categories also on the</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:02:03'>paper what you're looking at is a first</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:02:07'>draft it happens to be the fifth paper I wrote for this conference the first four</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:02:11'>used English and it seems to be a bad way of trying to communicate with with</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:02:17'>people who know English a lot better than I do so I fit of desperation I got</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:02:23'>40 packs of Polaroid film and started wailing away at our equipment</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:02:27'>this paper is essentially a picture show of the kinds of things that we're doing</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:02:33'>the I would hope that you don't copy it</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:02:37'>if you possibly can avoid it I will send</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:02:41'>you a better one main reason is that I forgot to put in the references to</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:02:46'>Winnie the Pooh all kinds of possible copyright violations and everything else</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:02:50'>since it is uses examples in there okay</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:02:54'>and we started this thing off we were</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:03:00'>very influenced by Piaget more papper Dewey even looking at active</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:03:08'>ways for trying to help kids to learn how to thank her to perfect their own</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:03:13'>thinking skills and the Pepper Thien</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:03:17'>kinds of things as most you know are to</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:03:21'>try and give a child and environment that's active like him it's an</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:03:26'>environment in which thinking and creativity are the natural kinds of</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:03:30'>things that are done I disagreed with Jeremy Finn this morning when he said</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:03:34'>the bad way to learn French is to get put in front and get put in a French</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:03:39'>beach that's a great way to learn French because you have to do you have real</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:03:43'>rewards for doing transactions in that kind of environment and the fact that</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:03:48'>kids don't learn mathematics who are creative thinking skills any better than</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:03:52'>they learn French in this country may mean that we're just not giving an environment for that anyway that's the</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:03:57'>capper idea and the question is what</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:04:01'>kind of environment can you come up with so we thought okay tool will create a</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:04:08'>will make a tool to do all of this and after a while we realized that it really</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:04:13'>wasn't a tool in fact the ideas surrounding tools are wrong because there are things that stir existing</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:04:18'>media okay what you really want is to if you</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:04:22'>have something that it's basically a new medium it's like paper now okay then you</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:04:28'>can create tools that stir that particular medium we don't understand</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:04:33'>what this medium is but I like to try and give you an idea of some of the</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:04:38'>things that we've done and some of the plans that we have and just sort of let</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:04:43'>it go with that I can say that the stuff</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:04:47'>I'm going to show you is science fiction right now but no new technologies have</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:04:53'>to be invented in order to make this come about I believe it's not more than</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:04:57'>two years off okay and when I mean two</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:05:01'>years off I mean the ability to have a device that will sell low sell for a</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:05:07'>price that's almost every sell for the</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:05:11'>same kinds of prices that color TVs do okay and perhaps lower so let's sort of</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:05:17'>see what it is you've already got that on we have the lights down and I'll grab</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:05:22'>the clicker if I don't very much so you're okay</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:05:29'>well this is an existing device it's the</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:05:34'>thing that you would hewlett-packard calls a pocket electronic slide rule and</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:05:40'>it turns out that the way they decided to make it is so that would fit into</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:05:45'>Bill Hewitt's shirt pocket that was the way it was was designed it had to do</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:05:51'>everything the slide rule would do except to ten places and they actually</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:05:55'>spent almost an extra year on this thing</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:06:00'>to keep it to those size specifications it has batteries and it can indeed be</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:06:05'>used on the glut on the grass the power that it has and the size portability and</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:06:12'>everything else make it something completely different so different that Hewlett Packard expects to sell three</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:06:16'>million of these in the next five years people who would never buy a calculating</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:06:20'>machine of any kind buy these things for $400 okay so quantitative changes if you</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:06:27'>make them large enough our qualitative changes here's our conception of this</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:06:33'>gadget we call Dynabook also designed to be used in the grass we don't have to</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:06:38'>worry about what's in it it suffice it</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:06:42'>to say that we designed the outside package first we wanted to be no larger</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:06:47'>than a standard notebook it's about nine by twelve and we tried to make the</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:06:55'>specifications for stylistic ones ones that had to do with the kind of quality</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:06:59'>that we wanted with the idea that we would try to beat the technologies</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:07:05'>needed to be beaten totally in the submission in order to fulfill the</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:07:10'>insides of the gadget and that in fact is what we are doing so the idea here it</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:07:15'>whoops the idea here is that it's</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:07:21'>supposed to be something like active paper</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:07:25'>it's not supposed to be worse than paper in any reasonable way it's one of the</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:07:30'>problems with modern technologies you always come up with something worse we</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:07:35'>wanted to be able to handle things dynamically rather than statically the</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:07:40'>way paper did but it at no at no real loss and quality so basically has a</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:07:46'>display in which you can see things you can think of as being like a television display means for entering things that</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:07:53'>has a you can barely see it a way for entering drawings and it has a removable</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:07:57'>hunk of storage that will store one 500 page book okay or million characters</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:08:03'>runs on batteries and you can carry it with its portable by my definition of</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:08:07'>portability okay which is that you can carry something else too</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:08:14'>well tell you what you can do with it in</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:08:18'>order to check out a few things we decided to simulate it using current</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:08:23'>computer technology so everything you're going to see from now on and every all the pictures in the paper are actual</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:08:29'>photographs taken at our lab okay the simulation is it in some sense a real</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:08:35'>simulation okay here's an example of the</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:08:39'>kind of display for text now because</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:08:43'>this is an active medium we can have any font that we want in text files for</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:08:49'>instance we have almost all of this book typed in we can look at this piece of</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:08:56'>text using any font the we that we wish and fonts of course have a great</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:09:02'>qualitative effect on the way people</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:09:06'>read things the way they think about them it's a well-known kind of thing</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:09:10'>here's exactly the same text seen in Bodoni font okay and the change from one</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:09:17'>font to another is as fast as clicking this slide here's another one</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:09:26'>okay here's here's one with italics</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:09:32'>now we the gadget that we built can</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:09:36'>display in color but the resolution is so poor on color monitors that you get a</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:09:40'>poor effect so we haven't done anything further in color since then and even</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:09:47'>more because it's an active medium the user can design his own way of looking</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:09:51'>at his information okay here I was</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:09:55'>dissatisfied with looking at Winnie the</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:09:59'>Pooh as a matter of fact in that other font and here I'm just drawing in the</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:10:05'>outline of a font character and here is what it will look like actual size and</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:10:10'>here is the the agony of the ecstasy</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:10:14'>shown in that font designed in about</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:10:18'>takes about an hour and a half to do on that tricky Winnie the Pooh another</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:10:26'>thing we're interested in doing is allowing people to substitute iconic</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:10:31'>reference for a text reference for instance substituting a picture of the</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:10:38'>bear for the for the word bear and some bees for the word bees now this the the</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:10:45'>idea here is that this is a pliable kind</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:10:49'>of medium it has the if if you want to</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:10:53'>contrast it to paper it's dynamically erasable much better than paper is</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:11:00'>okay you can have anything I hear again</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:11:05'>is the thing that we are experimenting with autistic kids or semi autistic kids</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:11:11'>is the idea of personalizing your own fine so here's the very same text of</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:11:16'>Winnie the Pooh in my handwriting okay</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:11:20'>the idea is it's yours it's it's hot it's a hot medium rather than a cold one</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:11:28'>another thing we were interested in doing is some non standard fonts these are described in the paper this is the</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:11:33'>pitman ITA kind of thing okay again this</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:11:39'>was not built into the device it was something that we decided to do quite a</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:11:43'>while after the device has been built but it's a very slippery kind of gadget</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:11:49'>because you can make it do a lot of things there's seeing a lot of the</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:11:54'>information we're using very small characters</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:12:00'>but of course you want to be able to draw one of the principles we had in</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:12:04'>designing this thing was that you should be able to have a balance again it's a</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:12:09'>qualitative thing you want to have a balance between art and skill it's a</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:12:13'>thing I alluded to this morning this is just religious doctrine but you want to</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:12:19'>be able to manipulate things to feel them you want to be able to do skill</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:12:23'>kinds of things you would like to be able to manipulate things directly you'd</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:12:28'>also like to manipulate them indirectly here I'm directly drawing in and editing</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:12:34'>I'm seeing it in two different sizes here okay now this is a picture editor</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:12:39'>may have heard of text editors this is a picture editor which I can sketch into</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:12:45'>Spacewar okay space war is a game that</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:12:49'>you would like to animate you draw your own spaceships and make them move around there's a section in the paper that</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:12:53'>prescribes that another thing we tried was a painting program whoops I promise</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:12:59'>I would never would not say the word program I managed to write this paper without saying either the word computer</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:13:04'>or program because if computers people think of as big card gobbling Fortran</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:13:11'>executing kinds of monsters whereas this is a completely different kind of thing</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:13:16'>here's a painting program again that the screen is completely parametric any area</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:13:21'>on the screen can be used as a paint pot here we supplied some and some brushes</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:13:25'>of different sizes okay</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:13:29'>here's a tone painting seen as texture in the large size and tone in the small</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:13:33'>size it was done by picking up using the</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:13:38'>stylus picking up a brush size like that</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:13:42'>dipping it into the paint pot and layering it on and again it's positive</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:13:48'>editing you can go in and change this stuff is laid in over the top</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:13:55'>okay here you get wallpaper if you use a</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:13:59'>non-standard pattern you draw a pattern and pick it up as paint and you can reproduce it all over the screen</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:14:12'>this happens to be an executive vice president of Xerox he was on the critical path of this machine we have</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:14:19'>done the sketching is very easy to do because again you can positively erase</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:14:24'>the racing isn't negative you were race by laying new stuff over and here's one</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:14:31'>that works real well Cookie Monster from Sesame Street and we</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:14:35'>have this fellow taking actually taking a chomp out of the see now but this one</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:14:40'>works well of course because he's mostly texture anyway okay now this is not done</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:14:47'>at our lab but these are again computer</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:14:51'>active information manipulator generated pictures they're what you would see if</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:14:57'>you happen to look at this scene with a TV camera except there is no TV cameras</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:15:02'>and there is no scene what exists is a semantic model of what the scene is</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:15:06'>constructed of the computer simply produces the million dots in color</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:15:12'>necessary because it's a three-dimensional scene you can look at it from another point of view instantly</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:15:21'>okay back to this little gadget how am i doing on time I don't want to okay right</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:15:28'>what do you do with it well the idea is</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:15:32'>you want to do as much as you possibly can uh there are better examples in the book I'll just give you an idea what</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:15:37'>what things look like when you get on when you step up to the to this your</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:15:43'>little Dynabook what you have is essentially a dynamic dictionary of all</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:15:48'>of the things that you ever wanted to have place stored by their name so</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:15:54'>here's something called before here's something called blocks count down count</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:16:01'>up draw draw a man yeah so on they can</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:16:08'>be either text like a story you're working on a poem which you can</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:16:12'>dynamically edit as described in the paper or they can be a set of actions</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:16:18'>with which the machine itself will evaluate in fact the think that's almost</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:16:24'>the end for instance this particular thing which</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:16:31'>particular definition which is called spaceship is a series of actions that</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:16:35'>will animate one of those one of those spaceships okay if that will cause it to</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:16:40'>fly around the screen under your own control now the interesting thing with</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:16:44'>kids see if I can get to the end here yes the interesting thing about kids is</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:16:50'>that they take to this like crazy they glom onto it</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:16:54'>like TV and in the five years or so of</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:17:00'>studies that have been done by people getting kids to cause a information</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:17:07'>manipulator like this do things for them have been quite remarkable they start</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:17:13'>off tap it for instance starts off with a turtle it's a device that sits on the</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:17:18'>floor and has a magic marker that can drop out of its rear end if you say forward 10 the turtle clanks forward 10</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:17:24'>notches if the pen happens to be down it leaves a track so if you say right 90 it</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:17:29'>turns right 90 you say forward 10 it goes forward 10 more notches do it a few</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:17:34'>more times and you have a square okay the important thing is that the kid has</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:17:39'>done something that he wants to do but in doing it he has exercised the one of the most</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:17:45'>important things I think in human thinking and that is the exercise of</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:17:50'>strategies and looking ahead planning taking something that's complicated and</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:17:54'>knocking it down into simpler things and so on so the idea behind this kind of I</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:18:01'>hesitate to call it education because it really isn't it's not instruction either what you're providing the kid is an</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:18:07'>environment which you can do things that appeal to him well what she's looked learning the</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:18:11'>kinds of things you would like him to learn another thing that's done give you</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:18:17'>an idea is this is basically a structural approach for people who are</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:18:21'>interested in in structure the other</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:18:25'>thing I mentioned in the other room that's puzzled people for a long time</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:18:29'>and that is if skinner was right why is it that when a kid is reading a story</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:18:35'>and he comes to you and asks you what a word means why doesn't why does he not</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:18:39'>come back after your telling what the word means almost never will a kid come back okay</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:18:45'>he's ready to he's ready to learn it the story has produced a structure in which</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:18:49'>he can fit that meaning the other hand if you try and teach him that word out</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:18:54'>of context you have to run him through the old Skinner box to get the S shape</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:18:58'>learning curve on that word he doesn't have any reason to learn it he doesn't</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:19:02'>have any structure to fit fit it in too so one of the things that we're doing is</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:19:07'>taking two very interesting structures actually three that is the idea of</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:19:14'>writing these actions the structure of pictures and music and combining them</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:19:21'>all together now music and and the language which is used to express the</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:19:27'>series of actions have the same structure okay and a musical score is a</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:19:34'>set of instructions for a human interpreter it has all of this yesterday</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:19:40'>to use the word computer again but it has all of the attributes of a computer program that's what it is</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:19:44'>except it's interpreted by a human they have different names for the leaves on</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:19:49'>the trees but they have the same structure and what the kids are learning</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:19:53'>here is to structure things without</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:19:57'>worrying about what the surface is this is why is arguing against the template thing the template thing may appear if</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:20:02'>you don't do something else but what you</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:20:07'>get here is sort of a Renaissance man effect the kid is gets used to -</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:20:13'>ignoring he's making up his own names for things all along what he's doing is</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:20:17'>ignoring syntactic structure and he's going deep into the way things the way</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:20:24'>things are taking them apart trying to fit them into a semantic kind of</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:20:28'>relationship and of course nobody knows whether this works or not I'm not what</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:20:32'>we're doing is we are not solving anybody's problem here okay because we</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:20:37'>don't know what the problem is what we're doing is simply</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:20:42'>moving on is intuitively and quickly as we possibly can to see whether this is</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:20:48'>whether these ideas are actually real or</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:20:52'>whether they're just another figment of people are people's imagination who are</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:20:57'>interested in helping kids I'll just say one more thing and that is that we are</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:21:03'>building in our 12 non-portable machines</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:21:08'>but which have exactly the same functions as the things that I've shown you and we'll be going out with kids</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:21:14'>next year so we'll find out this machine</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:21:18'>that I talked about is still about two years away so very good let's hear from</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:21:28'>our discussions and would you like to begin the athleisure in the year 2000 if</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:21:36'>there are any graduate students left and they have a historical sense they</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:21:42'>probably go back over the notes of this</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:21:46'>meeting and some of them might say that's funny on the day the diner book</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:21:51'>was introduced to the NCTE there always were also people concerned</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:21:56'>with such issues as responsive to literature and philosophy of Education</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:22:01'>and to their minds that might be quite difficult to tie together an immediate</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:22:08'>application of the Dynabook as I was viewing the slides and that's about as</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:22:15'>much information as I have about it that's as much you do seems to be that</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:22:21'>football coaches could cut down on preseason injuries drastically by not</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:22:28'>playing a war game but the football game I can see application we could program</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:22:32'>all kinds of defensive offensive moves and find out how bad the tackle would be</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:22:36'>and what stress on the bones might occur if the tackle was made away it was okay</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:22:41'>this is an interesting thing</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:22:46'>I'm not valuing it my descriptor I think</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:22:50'>and I honestly don't know where it will</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:22:54'>take us I think that it is true that miniaturization as is</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:22:59'>shown by those calculators though it may not make true the statement that</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:23:06'>increased quantity will a decrease but what was it against quality with the</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:23:11'>Senate many and many many kinds of</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:23:15'>things and then create a large enough quantitative change introduces a qualitative change you know that's you</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:23:20'>can cripple about that but I definitely believe that if computer applications in</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:23:27'>instruction and I'm limiting myself to that now rather than go to the domain of</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:23:32'>environments in a more general census Alan has you is it if computer</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:23:37'>applications are going to be any reality at all we must get rid of a great deal</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:23:43'>of logistical problems CIA CAI has had a</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:23:48'>long history and an unfortunate one in a</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:23:54'>sense and that goes for both our</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:23:58'>beautiful systems the fact that Alan is able to simulate the functions that his</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:24:03'>Dynabook will contain does mean that we</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:24:07'>do have these capabilities one of the system that is not much publicized yet</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:24:13'>the plate of for in Illinois is very advanced as a great deal of flexibility</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:24:18'>as opposed to other systems that we know of and yet getting students to get in</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:24:23'>contact with it involves so many problems that I don't really think that</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:24:28'>will get a long way with it until we miniaturize that's just one thought I</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:24:34'>understand that Alan has to leave somewhat later on the program and I'm</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:24:38'>going to make a few suggestions about some of the statements he makes in its</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:24:44'>presentation here that maybe just errors or misunderstanding but if you're going</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:24:48'>to rewrite your nature think about that on the page where the discussion of</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:24:54'>special funds is I find a few statements</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:24:58'>that I don't understand ITA encourage this decomposition and sub</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:25:04'>focalization both barriers to rapid reading okay also acquisition of language in</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:25:09'>children seems to be on the word and sentence level with little attention to</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:25:14'>grammar and almost no attention to morphology not unless you're saying</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:25:19'>something that's not there right now in</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:25:23'>my mind I think that's an patently untrue statement in the sense that</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:25:28'>stories like a Berk oh that's just one example show that even children as young</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:25:33'>as four year old do acquire rules of morphology even to the point that they</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:25:38'>will put the correct morphemes and pluralization of nonsense words so</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:25:43'>that's you know that's simply I think you ought to give consideration to that statement if you want to react to it</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:25:49'>right now fine if it's self well let's</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:25:54'>take the first one first it's true that that the well first I should say let's</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:26:01'>put in my own in my own opinion here because the we have to admit that the</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:26:07'>collections on research down about reading are really presuppose with those</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:26:13'>kinds of things to at least they all can't be true so they must be the</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:26:17'>opinion of the authors this is just yet another one but rapid readers seem to</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:26:24'>seem to not decompose the words they read it like Chinese as I eluded in</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:26:29'>there and ITA definitely encourages decoding and looking at the phonology of</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:26:34'>words the other thing is that the fact that four-year-olds are learning more</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:26:38'>follow G is not nearly as interesting as one and a half year olds learning</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:26:42'>language to me and the way they learn it is not through morphology or syntax but</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:26:47'>through the idea of words and objects and concatenating them together to make</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:26:52'>sentences that's their atomic structure again that's only my opinion that's a</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:26:57'>good thing that Buerkle was not in reading research I want to drop a point</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:27:02'>because fish everywhere I can't prove it any more than he can uh he can she can</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:27:08'>but anyway I I definitely think that</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:27:13'>there may be you know a great many instructional applicability of</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:27:21'>Dynabook like this the fact that</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:27:25'>children can manipulate things is in itself a factor which is going to be or</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:27:30'>import studies have shown that attitudinal interests in turn with CAI</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:27:37'>systems are pretty permanent kids levels</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:27:41'>of interest will stay with it even after prolonged interaction with such system</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:27:47'>so there's no reason to believe that this even more versatile machine will in</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:27:54'>that sense be a strong instructional component I don't believe that the</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:27:58'>instruction is the issue that I didn't mention the word instruction though and</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:28:03'>the of course it can be used for that and there's no way to prevent it being</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:28:08'>used for that but seems like instruction as well again here's another wild</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:28:14'>statement but it's not clear that instruction is the most reasonable way</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:28:19'>of getting kids to learn something as a better way might be getting them to</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:28:24'>become whatever it is that that you want them to learn me but again i just</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:28:32'>believe that the stylistic the ability to take something take a poem for</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:28:37'>instance and as somebody is mentioning this morning you change a word net well</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:28:42'>what about changing one of the things that we did I couldn't put in the paper because of copyright violations was for</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:28:46'>instance change all the he's and winnie-the-pooh to she reads very</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:28:50'>differently we're going in transformed Christopher Robin into Eleanor okay and</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:28:57'>you know diddle with it and this is something that you can do to get an idea</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:29:02'>of of how how easy changes lead to big</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:29:08'>effects quantitative qualitatively I the one of things mentioned in the</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:29:13'>paper is that Packard's kids were discovered to sneak in to use the text</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:29:18'>editor on the system simply to do their English compositions because they could</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:29:22'>change them with very little penalty and have to type them out again machine</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:29:27'>would do that for them and Patrick trapped every transaction that they made without</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:29:33'>them knowing it on the stories that they were writing on these things and it's</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:29:37'>it's a very interesting way of seeing how a kid puts a story together what kind of changes he makes to it how does</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:29:42'>he improve it when he doesn't have to pay for the penalty of doing it I think</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:29:47'>that's that to me is a heck of a lot more interesting than instruction in</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:29:51'>fact pepper it's kids this is a real laugh but Patrick's kids actually write</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:29:56'>their own CAI as when they want to learn multiplication they sit down write</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:30:00'>themselves a little multiplication drill program and tappets thing is that moat</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:30:05'>that CAI is one of the 20 things you get kids to do with a computer yeah things</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:30:10'>if okay I guess I told us all that but I don't think that the emergence of the</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:30:15'>Dynabook will deliver schools right away and I'm just I don't want it to I was</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:30:19'>looking at a possibility of thinking of its applications they're the more</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:30:23'>interesting point oh is that unless</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:30:29'>there's any good programs to be put in</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:30:34'>the file and I wanted use a word program</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:30:38'>this will just be a very short lived thing that's right that's why the that's</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:30:44'>why you want the kids to be able to see the difference between this kind of thing in playdough is profound you</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:30:49'>cannot write a child cannot write a program on playdough you has to do what it does we can't do</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:30:55'>anything and one of the problems is that Plato has a has a lack of instructional</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:30:59'>material somebody has to write that stuff yeah that's exactly the difference</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:31:04'>between being able to being able to to go to a library and being only be able</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:31:09'>to select one book and be able to sit down and get some pad and paper and write your own I think it's I think</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:31:15'>there's a difference I'm not saying that there aren't some things that you might not like to have a drilling skill</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:31:21'>program I can't think of any right offhand but like suppose you learn long</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:31:25'>division one way you can do it is be drilled and skilled to death</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:31:30'>learning long division what is long division good for well it's not clear</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:31:34'>but one way to one way to learn it is to understand it one way to understand it</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:31:39'>is to write a series of actions that will do it for you</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:31:43'>okay you got a tremendous reward there not only have you understood it better than you than anybody has ever</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:31:48'>understood long division before so you have to cover every case but you never have to do long division again yourself</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:31:55'>okay you've got it on your dictionary that's there I don't the evidence shows</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:32:00'>that there's absolutely no lack fact it's absolutely the opposite the kids absolutely saturate the files of</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:32:06'>Packard's stuff with their own stuff kids are really verbs not nouns you know</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:32:11'>it's really unfortunate that the word kid is applied to them their very least</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:32:17'>Germans could could we turn to some of</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:32:22'>your reactions and move into that</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:32:28'>well I think that that in the Lord's Alan's work and his talk indicates a</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:32:36'>line of research that could best be characterized as the exploration of a</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:32:42'>medium that is what actually that medium</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:32:46'>is and what it might be capable of doing</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:32:50'>and incidentally in this work comes</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:32:57'>along the production of experimental devices that form the focus of the work</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:33:04'>at various points in time</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:33:08'>I think there is a tendency in our profession to look at this medium</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:33:16'>exploration in terms of the gadgets the</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:33:24'>devices that might result from the</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:33:28'>exploration itself and while I would be</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:33:32'>the last one to say that that that product in the form of devices would not</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:33:39'>be forthcoming they well may I think that it's probably an unfortunate well</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:33:49'>narrowing of one's view if one looks</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:33:53'>rigidly and exclusively at the devices themselves because in fact what anybody</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:34:02'>who works with a new medium comes to understand is that developing a new</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:34:08'>medium were in the process of developing a new medium well kind of to use</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:34:12'>professor Brody's terms this morning what you're really doing is forging a</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:34:17'>new kind of stencil a new kind of template a new way to look at things and</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:34:23'>I think that if I were to project on</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:34:28'>where the let's say short-term benefits</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:34:33'>of the exploration of the kinds of media that Alan is talking about if I were to</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:34:37'>ask where it's going to come from probably less from the devices than it</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:34:42'>is from the general conceptual framework</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:34:46'>in which the investigation proceeds and I'd like to give you one very specific</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:34:53'>example because well one example that it</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:34:57'>seems to me is going to have will at</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:35:02'>least become visible in the field of English within the next within the next</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:35:06'>few years and I think it's indicative of a number that are likely to come there's</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:35:12'>a line of research with which I'm familiar that starts in</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:35:18'>IBM's research division where a group</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:35:23'>for numbers in the mid 60s was charged with the responsibility to develop to</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:35:29'>explore the medium of computer assisted instruction and over the years the</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:35:36'>people in the this IBM research group said about developing what they and</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:35:43'>others as well were referring to as</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:35:47'>drill and practice programs drill and</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:35:51'>practice programs were intended to be used as adjunct kinds of learning</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:35:57'>experiences where Morales is a replacement of workbook activity of</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:36:02'>drill activity and there are a number of</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:36:06'>experiments in foreign language learning and remedial English language skills</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:36:14'>arithmetic statistics a number of them a</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:36:18'>number of experiments that it seems to</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:36:23'>me experiments for which I think it could be said that the results are quite compelling it's not a question of</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:36:28'>significance the results are large well</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:36:32'>no one hears too much about these things now and I think very largely because the</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:36:39'>device by which this this instructional technique was media it happens to be an</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:36:44'>extremely costly one in us for the time being falling out of falling out of sight but there's been a line of</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:36:52'>research over the last three four years that has started by analyzing the</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:37:00'>successes of the CAI experimentation and ask the question well why is it that it</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:37:05'>works and the general conclusion has</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:37:10'>been that it works for a really a very simple reason namely what this CAI was</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:37:18'>able to achieve was a translation of</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:37:24'>apparently sound pedagogical theory into practice</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:37:28'>the points that are made are as far as this theory is concerned that students</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:37:33'>learn at varying rates that they can</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:37:37'>benefit from immediate and detailed feedback regarding the adequacy of their</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:37:43'>performance that they can benefit from tailored assignments based on some</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:37:48'>demonstrated need and that their learning is somehow facilitated in a</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:37:53'>skills program if they're required to master one block of stuff before going</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:37:57'>on on to the next recognizing that it</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:38:02'>was the computer as a medium that was able to achieve this translation this</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:38:09'>line of research simply asked the question well if this is what's going on</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:38:14'>here why might it not be possible simply</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:38:18'>to devise paper and pencil techniques whereby you would have students working</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:38:23'>in pairs a version of the buddy system with which teachers seemed to be very</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:38:29'>familiar a special version of the buddy system in which students provide</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:38:35'>immediate and selective correction one for the other where they provide</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:38:39'>according to some pre established routine tailored assignments based upon</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:38:46'>some evidence of how the kid they're working with is doing and so on and so forth</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:38:50'>in any event there have now been a number of experiments some more detail</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:38:55'>than others attempting to explore that</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:38:59'>simulation of a computer technique and</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:39:03'>the results have been every bit as striking and my own feeling is that that</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:39:09'>as these findings begin to be made known what will become very clear is that from</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:39:16'>the point of view itself there are</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:39:20'>potentially a great many enormous benefits that that conceivably can be</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:39:26'>derived and if I were to project I would</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:39:30'>guess that that that over the next 10 years</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:39:34'>that we're likely to see very substantial reformulations of</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:39:38'>instructional systems the materials that support them the format's of the</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:39:44'>materials that are used those systems of</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:39:48'>use in the classroom by which these materials are used I expect to see great changes in these</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:39:54'>kinds of things and I would have to argue that it is from the general</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:39:59'>perspective of point or point of view of the medium exploration that that Allen</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:40:06'>and his associates are currently engaged in kind summarize what you said I think</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:40:14'>what what the major thing that was found out in CAI as far as I've ever been able</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:40:19'>to read was that instant response really really works</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:40:23'>that's about all I really know about positive results in CAI that is students</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:40:30'>being tested with the same material one on a teletype console and the other one</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:40:35'>with with just the same material on paper there's a there's a remarkable difference between the two the active</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:40:40'>return of the thing Peter has done an interesting thing using kids to simulate</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:40:46'>this kind of thing I think that the</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:40:50'>reason I came to this conference was to try and get some ideas for how is it</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:40:56'>that you measure progress in stylistic kinds of things as if your goal is not</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:41:02'>answers right protesters test pass per year but sort of measuring Sistine</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:41:07'>Chapel ceilings per lifetime ahead how</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:41:11'>do you how do you know you're moving on towards that and we've been trying to</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:41:17'>figure out ways of getting some idea whether the kid is developing his own</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:41:22'>style by</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:41:26'>through let's just say through media this isn't the exclusive medium that we</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:41:31'>use but that's what we're interested in and people who are interested in that</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:41:35'>please write me we have various groups on the west coast</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:41:40'>thinking about that right now that nobody has has come up with any</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:41:44'>brilliant ideas about how you measure a style seems like a stylistic things since the kid starts out with a lot of</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:41:49'>style they almost all do and it gets gradually whittled away it'd be</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:41:53'>interesting to know how to allow them to look at things from many different perspectives including the one that they</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:41:58'>start out it started out with and still be able to let's say integrate</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:42:04'>themselves into various aspects of the</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:42:08'>real world Ellen I wonder if we might turn to the audience our time is</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:42:12'>starting to get very short but maybe we</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:42:16'>could take one or two questions from the audience before we have to stop is there</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:42:22'>anyone that would like to comment all</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:42:26'>right I have 200 points but I think they're and they don't really get out immediate question you're asking but I</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:42:32'>think they get a substance of what's in the media</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:42:36'>I think you've made up an assumption that's gotten us in trouble before and</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:42:41'>that is the process of reading that adults engage in is somehow similar to</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:42:47'>process that children go through in learning to read and you mentioned that</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:42:51'>specifically in the content about APA it's entirely possible that children</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:42:57'>have to engage in signs of behaviour in learning to read that adults have long</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:43:01'>since given up on because they are productive to reading Vasiliy the other</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:43:07'>one is that the song that we've been working on enjoying it for some time now</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:43:12'>with not any great success but it's not clear to us that whatever a word means</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:43:18'>in pre readers concepts is also very</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:43:22'>different from anything like word says the word the concept word is really derived from print and a word could be</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:43:28'>most effectively defined as a letter or collection of letters with more space</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:43:32'>around it then when you talk about</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:43:36'>language then the reality then of the word is in language you come to and</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:43:40'>particularly in terms of language acquisition some very interesting ways</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:43:44'>that kids divide the world up and which we really know yeah I I I believe that's</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:43:52'>that second thing is true the first one I'm not so sure about the the only</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:43:56'>reason I have that supposition is that well my brother is is five years younger</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:44:00'>than than I am we both learned how to read at the age of two apparently</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:44:04'>accidentally and both of us read over 2,000 words minute and as far as we can</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:44:08'>tell this is five years apart the reason it happened was that our parents read to</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:44:13'>us every night aloud and ran their finger underneath the words and we read</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:44:18'>almost before we could speak and was years later that we learned how to spell</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:44:22'>now of course taking two cases and running a generalization from that is</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:44:26'>kind of silly but on the other hand it is cast readers do read that way and</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:44:32'>it's not see the idea there is you're associating the kind of a thing that a kid can do already very fast that is he</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:44:37'>can hear a story and hears it whatever</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:44:42'>way he whatever way puts it together he hears it as a stream of things that are like nouns and verbs</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:44:47'>okay and sentences utterances but that's</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:44:51'>just a theory I don't I don't know so could you comment upon this method of a</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:44:57'>way in which this media is use its effect upon human interaction almost we</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:45:05'>are so informal when I say we I mean the other groups too that are doing this</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:45:10'>kind of thing that would just disgust anybody who wanted concrete results most</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:45:15'>of us have a prejudice about getting a good intuitive feel for what's going on</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:45:20'>before we try and develop a theory and we don't have that the basic difference</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:45:25'>is in the kids after a couple of months doing this are a change from in general</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:45:31'>a a very I call it a noun like way of</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:45:35'>looking at oneself being acted on by the outside to one of almost and like one</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:45:40'>kid made a mistake in a program and gave it a grade of B when he started off</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:45:44'>because that's you know he's used to the one time test that's all the chance you</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:45:48'>get whereas course you get chances over and over here you can make you can do something that's perfect and after about</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:45:53'>a month this sinks into the kids and they get unbelievably cocky about their</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:45:58'>ability to do things even they're willing to attack anything because</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:46:02'>they've seen that a few things can be pulled apart and understood okay so the</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:46:08'>real effect the one concrete effect and this is I'm not basing any of the</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:46:14'>reasons I'm doing this I'm doing this stuff because I like it the one concrete</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:46:18'>effect that is pointed to is that Patrick's kids once did this for a year instead of their fifth grade to the</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:46:23'>total exclusion of their fifth grade mathematics they at the end of that year</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:46:27'>they took a standardized test in Massachusetts with the other 5th grade classes and just completely wiped them</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:46:32'>out that is the worst kid in Packard's</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:46:36'>class was better than the best kids I might mention that Pafford has only</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:46:40'>accepted kids in the in the bottom two thirds into his thing he doesn't he has</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:46:46'>excluded exceptional kids that are measured by conventional means from</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:46:50'>doing this stuff because he doesn't want that kind of</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:46:54'>you know that that kind of interaction artifacts creation so but really the</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:47:00'>people who are doing are doing it because they believe in it as its you</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:47:05'>know all these educators or people who are interested in educator or just notably religious and and the ones of us</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:47:10'>are doing this or are no different you know we just believe it's a good thing</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:47:14'>we feel that the theory will fall out if we only were to do enough of it but</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:47:18'>there just hasn't been enough done so like I say we're not solving anybody's</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:47:22'>problem here our if you know a way to measure these stylistic things we sure</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:47:27'>like to say something it's the the convent of relationship</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:47:33'>that students would have with each other we talk in humanistic terms what what</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:47:38'>are the implications of this upon the way in which kids will react to other</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:47:42'>people and what kind of you know what kind of adults are they gonna grow up being pretty chatty the tappets kids and</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:47:49'>again these are this is the only stuff that's really been done for long enough to say anything about spend less than</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:47:54'>eight less than twenty percent of their time actually working at a console doing</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:47:59'>something they spend the rest of their time planning things out one of the</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:48:04'>reasons we put it in the sketching quality graphics is we'd like the kids to be able to plan on it you know</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:48:08'>playing in a grungy kind of way that way people do what they planned but they</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:48:13'>spend their time planning and talking things over with other kids and acting</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:48:17'>out the kinds of things that they you know they assumed various different perspectives one is there the thing that</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:48:22'>they're trying to manipulate and they go wandering around the room another thing is that's sort of a reflexive kind of</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:48:28'>thing another thing is trying to articulate which is the writing of the program</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:48:32'>now there's sort of a critic okay or a</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:48:36'>constructor the lots of different kaprat has done some clever things also he</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:48:40'>happened to work the coordinate systems out so you can do two dimensional linear</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:48:44'>transformations completely without ever knowing about sine and cosine which is a</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:48:49'>very nice thing kids do learn linear transformations in fifth grade because</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:48:54'>they want to move they want to make things of different sizes and they want</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:48:58'>to move them around on the screen they don't have to know trig to do that</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:49:02'>so that's just a side effect Ellen I hate to interrupt but I think our time</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:49:07'>is just about done thank you very much and we'll stand adjourned</subtitle>
<subtitle id='2974'>you </subtitle>