Difference between revisions of "Alan Kay Interview by Dave Marvit (2013)"

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<subtitle id="0:0:12">are there important</subtitle>
 +
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<subtitle id="0:0:15"> problems for  technology to solve you</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:0:18">within the scope of technology the ambit  of technological solution and if</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:0:21"> so what  well</subtitle>
 +
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<subtitle id="0:0:24"> I think the you</subtitle>
 +
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<subtitle id="0:0:27"> know if you take  the route of technology technique</subtitle>
 +
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<subtitle id="0:0:30"> it  really means things that humans</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:0:33"> make so  it's a much</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:0:36"> larger word than the way we  use it today and</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:0:39"> the Latin root was ours  from which arts you</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:0:42"> know the word the  arts</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:0:45"> didn't mean the Fine Arts back</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:0:48"> then  but they meant the art of building</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:0:51"> this  and that and the art of cooking and also</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:0:54">the art of dancing and the art of music  and stuff but basically</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:0:57"> the term the  arts have gotten kind of co-opted</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:1:0"> by the  Fine Arts in our era</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:1:3"> so if you take a  look at the the</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:1:6"> synergies between human  beings and their creations</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:1:9"> you know  they're</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:1:12"> more I think would be very  difficult to define</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:1:15"> a human being  without looking at either</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:1:18"> physical or  ideational</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:1:21"> artifacts</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:1:24"> because we actually  create language</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:1:27"> out of a propensity  towards</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:1:30"> language as we're growing up and  that language has a lot</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:1:33"> of commitments  and meanings</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:1:36"> to what the meaning of the  culture is so</subtitle>
 +
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<subtitle id="0:1:39"> so one way to</subtitle>
 +
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<subtitle id="0:1:42"> you could  you could imagine a</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:1:45"> degree in technology  that was different than a degree in  engineering</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:1:48"> that just included  engineering is one</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:1:51"> part of it  that</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:1:54"> could actually deal much more with  the</subtitle>
 +
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<subtitle id="0:1:57"> whole system so you</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:2:0"> know I argued  with the young kid there</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:2:3"> the  eye-tracking kid because he had started</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:2:6">  off with this idea which i think is a</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:2:9">  corporate mantra that</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:2:12"> you know the  future</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:2:15"> is going to be humans</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:2:18"> fitting - I  mean machines fitting to humans</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:2:21"> rather  than humans fitting to machines and it I</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:2:24">  don't think that that split actually</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:2:27"> can  exist there's no question</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:2:30"> but that the  machines we use change us</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:2:33"> well they  don't change us we</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:2:36"> change us machines  are just doing things and</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:2:39"> it's it's our</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:2:42">interpretations of the things that  change that</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:2:45"> change jeans are just  catalyst</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:2:48"> they're that's because you know</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:2:51">  we have these cause and effect things</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:2:54">  it's like you insulted</subtitle>
 +
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<subtitle id="0:2:57"> me and</subtitle>
 +
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<subtitle id="0:3:0"> you know  unless unless you actually poke</subtitle>
 +
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<subtitle id="0:3:3"> your  fingers in my eye all you're doing is  creating</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:3:6"> vibrations in the air and every</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:3:9">other every part of the insult is  something that I have</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:3:12"> to interpret  myself</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:3:15"> and react to right</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:3:18"> so if people  were actually dealing with</subtitle>
 +
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<subtitle id="0:3:21">actually going on you couldn't be  insulted</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:3:24"> unless you chose to be so</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:3:27"> so  what I asked you was it</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:3:30"> was only  response was reasonable and you broaden  the</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:3:33"> definition of technology has  typically used to encompass</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:3:36"> an enormous  scope you're just which is cool and</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:3:39">we can sort of put that into question  and say okay given the enormous scope  and</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:3:42"> then we're given the smaller scope  but I</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:3:45">corporate hat a little bit here and  trying</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:3:48"> to think of okay we have</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:3:51"> this  muscle this techno developmental</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:3:54"> muscle  at a large corporation and it</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:3:57"> would be  good to put it to use to good</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:4:0"> use if  that's even possible so</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:4:3">the frame us a framework in which I was  asking the question</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:4:6">  I think the well let</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:4:9"> me be elliptical  again but if you go</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:4:12"> back to this</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:4:15">  interesting phenomenon that</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:4:18"> if you look  at</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:4:21"> the daily use of</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:4:24"> people with say  computers of whatever</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:4:27"> whatever kind</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:4:30"> it's  hard to find any actual new</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:4:33"> any  technology in there that is newer</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:4:36"> than  thirty years old as</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:4:39"> far as the  foundational ideas</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:4:42"> so the whole idea of</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:4:45">  graphical user interfaces is came</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:4:48"> from  the 60s and the one we happen to use</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:4:51">  today was invented at Parc but it wasn't  invented</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:4:54"> in isolation of previous ones  the mouth</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:4:57"> both the mouse and the tablet  were invented in</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:5:0"> 1964 most people don't  realize that the</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:5:3"> ARPANET started working  in 1969</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:5:6"> and it just morphed into</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:5:9"> the  Internet the ethernet was</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:5:12"> invented at  Xerox PARC around 1973</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:5:15"> object-oriented</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:5:18">programming yeah so if you if you go  down the line then</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:5:21"> as I pointed out that  if you take a</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:5:24"> look at what people are  doing on the</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:5:27"> on the web what I see is  mainly better-looking</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:5:30"> graphics than we  could do 50 years</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:5:33"> ago but what</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:5:36"> I don't  see is angle Bart's ideas</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:5:39"> so Engelbart  routinely</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:5:42"> shared screens</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:5:45"> in real time  for the entire work</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:5:48"> and so  you know it</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:5:51"> was an in an integral part  of the system</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:5:54"> it wasn't an app that you  use it was actually</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:5:57">and if you're gonna work with somebody  and often</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:6:0"> you could see the other person  if they're</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:6:3"> more than two people  collaborating their</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:6:6"> initials would show  up on the cursor so you</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:6:9">they're pointing at and this is all in  the 60s and</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:6:12"> there's nothing about it is  hidden so</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:6:15"> what I see is something much  more like a pop</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:6:18"> culture today where  people</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:6:21"> are completely indifferent to</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:6:24"> the  past and it's</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:6:27"> not that everything in the  past was good but it's real</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:6:30">ose the stuff that was better than the  idea</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:6:33"> like Engelbart was smarter than  most people today and</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:6:36"> so they can have  all the pleasures</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:6:39"> they want inventing  something and having</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:6:42"> that egocentric  satisfaction</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:6:45"> that I did this but  basically it's</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:6:48"> just a form of pollution  because</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:6:51">talking about something that's just for  a single person's</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:6:54"> pleasure we're talking  about something that which everything is  done</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:6:57"> is Rama file to two billion</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:7:0"> people  now and that you just can't allow</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:7:3"> people  who you</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:7:6"> know whether willfully or</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:7:9">unconsciously</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:7:12"> are you know just  polluting</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:7:15"> the system because they don't  know any better  yeah</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:7:21">on the other hand we've</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:7:24"> got this paradox  that</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:7:27"> a lot of the</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:7:30"> solutions in the past  that were better than the solutions  today</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:7:33"> are not the solutions that we need</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:7:36">  because the problems are different  well</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:7:39"> no it's even for the same problems  so</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:7:42"> if you talk to the angle bard Ian's  back</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:7:45"> then they knew they were just doing  a version of</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:7:48"> the thing it happened their  version is</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:7:51"> was a better set of thoughts  than the web thoughts</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:7:54"> which were really  crude and almost</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:7:57"> nothing of vision in  them but</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:8:0"> the angle bargains would say  well you know you know don't</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:8:3"> build a  religion about our stuff because we</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:8:6"> have  to do some more qualitative iterations</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:8:9">  because there's</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:8:12"> so much user interface  burden in</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:8:15"> doing this stuff so when we  were doing</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:8:18"> the you</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:8:21"> know the small talk  stuff with</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:8:24"> the GUI and</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:8:27"> children and  desktop publishing and all that stuff</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:8:30">  it's your ex part the</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:8:33"> technologic  technological stuff was</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:8:36"> relatively easy  partly because we had</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:8:39"> some geniuses so  he had this guy Chuck back</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:8:42"> you know  they're all in the wall over there so  Chuck</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:8:45"> Thacker Butler Lampson Metcalf did</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:8:48">  the ethernet I don't know whether stark  Starkweather</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:8:51"> should be in there did the  laser printer so these guys</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:8:54"> are really  incredible</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:8:57"> and we we</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:9:0"> had people besides  me who</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:9:3"> were very well-versed in</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:9:6"> user  interfaces but in fact user</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:9:9"> interface  design is this</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:9:12">because</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:9:15"> it is a design and something  that</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:9:18"> fits it's really hundreds of  experiments and</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:9:21"> almost every experiment  fails</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:9:24"> in one way or another and so the  people who do this</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:9:27"> successfully are have</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:9:30">  tools that allow them to to try ten</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:9:33">  different kinds of things a day and of</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:9:36">  course because the users learn you have</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:9:39">  to get a new batch of users rather</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:9:42"> often  to in order</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:9:45"> to see how users react to  something like this the first time</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:9:48"> out  that's true in the generative side and  also the</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:9:51">you do put out in the world change as a  result of what</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:9:54">game theoretic moving target  yeah and so</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:9:57"> one of the ironies of the</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:10:0">park GUI which has been you know it's  two billion</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:10:3"> people and probably a</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:10:6">  million applications now have been</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:10:9"> done  successfully in it it's</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:10:12"> actually a  bicycle with training wheels</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:10:15">nobody knows the training wheels are on  it and</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:10:18"> the reason is is that I designed  that user interface for children</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:10:21"> and</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:10:24"> one  of the things that was not a training  wheel</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:10:27"> on it was never accepted by</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:10:30"> Apple  and because it wasn't accepted by Apple</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:10:33">  Microsoft never appropriated it and</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:10:36">  because of that gnome didn't you</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:10:39"> look at the way these things trickle  through and</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:10:42"> so that particular idea</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:10:45">  which was</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:10:48"> recognition of some of the  overlap</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:10:51"> between children and adults  never is</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:10:54"> not on any system today except</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:10:57">  except small talk which it always was on</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:11:0">  so what is that idea well the idea was  just that</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:11:3"> it's not really a desktop that</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:11:6">  was Apple's misinterpretation</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:11:9">  even after we explained to them</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:11:12"> not a  desktop it's or</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:11:15"> if you want to think of  it as a desktop there are</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:11:18"> an unlimited  number of them and they really didn't  get</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:11:21"> that in that those a couple of demos</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:11:24">  we showed them and so if you think if  have</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:11:27"> you know what could I do with an  unlimited number of desktops</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:11:30">answer is I can organize  but I</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:11:33"> don't want to be application  centric because an application</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:11:36"> is a  stovepipe what I really want is  something</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:11:39"> where I can get every object  of every</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:11:42"> kind that I need for this  project out</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:11:45"> where I can do things with  them and I</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:11:48"> want that desktop to remember</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:11:51">  their state over time because</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:11:54"> most  people including children have</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:11:57"> three or  four projects they're working on each  day</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:12:0"> and instead what Mac</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:12:3">Windows did is to give you a situation  where you're kind of</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:12:6">and tearing things down and staying  inside of</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:12:9"> applications and not being  able to integrate you</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:12:12"> know in other  words what Apple and and</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:12:15"> Microsoft did  was</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:12:18"> was something that essentially</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:12:21">prevented what today would be called a  mashup</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:12:24"> but you actually want it so if  you think in</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:12:27"> object-oriented terms you  don't have to have applications</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:12:30">didn't have them at Parc you don't have  files</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:12:33"> what you have is an unlimited  number of areas</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:12:36"> which today you could  think of as web pages</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:12:39"> and but you can do  all developmental</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:12:42"> things on and that's  what I was giving my talk in</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:12:45"> first so I  can</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:12:48"> run so the important thing is it's  dynamic I get something</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:12:51"> that's 10 times  as powerful as PowerPoint for</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:12:54"> free and  there's a sorter so I can</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:12:57"> show which  ones are those things that I want and  cool</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:13:0"> and so forth so that was a one</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:13:3"> of  the strongest ideas that we evolved</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:13:6"> at  Parc probably around</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:13:9"> 76 or 77</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:13:12">  onwards never made it still</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:13:15"> would be  useful so that so when I look at the</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:13:18">  interfaces today what I see because</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:13:21"> I  know what it was and what</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:13:24"> it could be I  see first a</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:13:27"> bicycle with training wheels  on</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:13:30"> but people can't see the training  wheels because they don't know</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:13:33"> it's  supposed to be a bike and then the  second</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:13:36"> thing I see after 20 30 years of  it is a</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:13:39"> bicycle with training wheels on  it completely</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:13:42"> encrusted with jewels and  rhinestones</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:13:45"> because it's been decorated</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:13:48">  in a thousand different ways features</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:13:51">have been put on it but it's still got  the fucking training wheels on</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:13:54"> it and so  this is actually the way things</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:13:57"> go  because if people are not willing to  actually</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:14:0"> like Apple did not want to hear</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:14:3">what the theory of that user interface  was even</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:14:6"> after I was there for 12 years  because</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:14:9"> they had expropriated it it was  now their thing</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:14:12"> wasn't the</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:14:15"> you know the  history of it was completely irrelevant  so</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:14:18"> that was when I realized oh this is a  pop culture this</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:14:21"> is the way it doesn't  matter how how good any</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:14:24"> musician was of  the past or anything else the point of a</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:14:27">  pop culture is getting identity through  your own</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:14:30"> actions a feeling of  participation it's not</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:14:33"> the same as  where's Park was anything but a pop</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:14:36">culture Park was all about banding  together in</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:14:39"> a pretty anonymous group of  experts</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:14:42"> to make something grand</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:14:45"> so the  part of the implication of this is</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:14:48"> that  the the intellectual</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:14:51"> ownership which  often brings with it resistance to</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:14:54">  change is is</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:14:57"> it fundamental to corporate  models and if if</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:15:0"> not then how do you  shake it well I</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:15:3"> mean everybody has an  ego so</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:15:6"> the real question any especially  any research</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:15:9"> manager  ass is not does</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:15:12"> this person have an ego  or not that's it's like</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:15:15"> that guy saying  we're gonna have the</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:15:18"> Machine fit to the  person</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:15:21"> so the real real question your  ass you</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:15:24"> always ask is what is the</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:15:27">  general expression of ego that this  person</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:15:29"> exhibits and that the way they</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:15:32">  express is what allows them</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:15:36"> to be</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:15:39"> team  members and stars at the same</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:15:41">because you want to have stars dark  sparkles</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:15:44"> full of stars but the key to  the</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:15:47"> key to park and the arpa community  it came from</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:15:50"> was how it cooperative was  how it was</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:15:53"> able to cooperate was not was</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:15:56">  competitive up to</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:15:59"> a point that was just  good enough to be</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:16:2"> fun was mildly  competitive</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:16:5"> but the truth was is</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:16:8"> that  the 15 or 16 are per projects</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:16:11"> cooperated  they swapped graduate students</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:16:14"> they're  all working in on the same</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:16:17"> vision but  they had different goals and</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:16:20"> this gave a  lot of opportunity for</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:16:23"> argument and this  was a was a community</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:16:26"> that had learned  how to argue that's what I learned</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:16:29"> when  I went to graduate school was for the  first time</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:16:32"> in my life how to actually  argue because</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:16:35"> when I was a kid I</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:16:38">  mistakenly thought that the</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:16:41"> purpose of  an argument was to win it</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:16:44">  and but they you</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:16:47"> know but argument in</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:16:50">the ARPA community was not that's sort  of what you do with debate</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:16:53"> you know it's  sophistry learn</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:16:56"> how to win a debate and  they</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:16:59"> were not interested in that at all  and of course there were a couple of  exceptions</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:17:2"> but I'm talking about  hundreds of people here</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:17:5"> and the purpose  of these arguments was</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:17:8"> to illuminate to  get out</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:17:11"> different perspectives on  something and</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:17:14"> park was a an argument if  you talk</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:17:17"> to anybody who was there we  argued</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:17:20"> incessantly with each other and  it frightened</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:17:23"> Xerox actually because  they misinterpreted</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:17:26"> it yeah taya well</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:17:29">I'm as strife  whereas</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:17:32"> Taylor who was kind of the  genius</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:17:35"> who had been one of the</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:17:38">funders and then was the guy who set up  Xerox</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:17:41"> PARC he was a psychologist like</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:17:44">  the guy who initiated ARPA funding  Licklider</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:17:47"> and Taylor never made</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:17:50"> a  technical decision he trusted his  scientists</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:17:53"> and his job as he saw</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:17:56"> it was  to protect us from Xerox and</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:17:59"> to set up a  climate</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:18:2"> where these lone-wolf he he got</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:18:5">  most of the people at park a lot of</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:18:8">people were what you would call lone  wolves</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:18:11"> he liked that because he didn't  you</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:18:14"> know he wanted people who were  basically not amenable to being</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:18:17"> managed  we needed management he</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:18:20">have a management structure and he  didn't</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:18:23"> but then there's the question of  can</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:18:26"> he set up something so that these  lone wolves will cooperate</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:18:29"> when that's a  good idea and to</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:18:32"> give you an example of  that there's no reason to cooperate on</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:18:35"> a</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:18:38">programming language  pretty much everybody</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:18:41"> at park could  invent and build</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:18:44"> a programming language  or an operating system</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:18:47"> so the idea is  anything goes there</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:18:50"> but if you're gonna  do an alto</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:18:53"> where and</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:18:56"> the the mantra  there was that</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:18:59"> everything that we do had  to be engineered for 100 users</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:19:2"> so we  built a fake pdp-10 that</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:19:5"> had to run a  hundred users as a time sharing system</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:19:8">and when we did the Alto we knew we were  gonna have to build</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:19:11"> a hundred of it and  building a hundred machines</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:19:14"> that in  today's terms would cost about eighty  thousand</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:19:17"> bucks apiece  you need to have cooperation</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:19:20"> and he got  it and</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:19:23"> he didn't have to organize the  cooperation the</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:19:26"> cooperation happened  maybe</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:19:29"> even in a better way than he ever  dreamed although he had picked</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:19:32"> us and  and it happened</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:19:35"> because</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:19:38"> this that and  the other well so one of the things</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:19:41"> was  Taylor set up was</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:19:44"> every single person</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:19:47">  who was at Park has to be totally</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:19:50">enthusiastic about the next person to  come in</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:19:53"> it was a single black ball</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:19:56">and the reason that this</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:19:59"> took forever  because</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:20:2"> you know some people would know  this person  some</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:20:5"> people would only know the  reputation person</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:20:8"> would have to come in  and talk to everybody that would take</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:20:11">  days and it was</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:20:14"> incredibly unwieldy so</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:20:17">  we grumbled however it worked perfectly  because</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:20:20"> there were never any rivalries</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:20:23">  such as you would get when you just</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:20:26">plonk a new person who's really good  that</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:20:29"> was the only kind they wanted there  so</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:20:32"> there's no getting out to swords and  testing</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:20:35"> out any of this stuff everybody  who's completely committed</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:20:38"> to the new  member of the marriage</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:20:41"> before it ever  happened and so so</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:20:44"> by going through the  this enormous overhead</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:20:47"> in the beginning  of the thing it</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:20:50"> paid off many many times  over the decade</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:20:53"> that Park was most  productive Taylor</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:20:56"> had a lot of things  like that so let me</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:20:59">too much your time you should interview  him if I</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:21:2"> would love to actually maybe  the nice thing is that you</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:21:5">Licklider I think was a little bit more  intuitive</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:21:8"> but Taylor was a big fan of  lick</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:21:11"> lighters and so he went</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:21:14"> to town on  how Licklider did his thing and</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:21:17"> applied  this when he was the</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:21:20"> ARPA funder and  here's</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:21:23"> a guy who funded the ARPANET</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:21:26"> and  when Taylor</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:21:29"> came to park and was in</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:21:32"> the  position of setting up this lab of his  own</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:21:35"> he was determined to try</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:21:38">every single one of these things that he  thought was a gem of a</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:21:41"> principle to work  and he was willing to talk</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:21:44">was trying to do it wasn't anything  covert I</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:21:47"> will make a point of that um so  just sort</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:21:50"> of a wrap now maybe you and I  can continue some time down in LA</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:21:53"> if you  were going</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:21:56"> to if I was going to edit  this and tell the guys at Fujitsu</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:21:59"> what  we should do as an institution to  innovate</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:22:2"> more better different effect  well I think first</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:22:5"> the there in Silicon  Valley now</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:22:8">  they should use the Silicon Valley  meanings</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:22:11"> of the word innovate and invent  which</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:22:14"> are I think made up by Regis  McKenna years</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:22:17"> ago but so so innovation</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:22:20">  is taking an idea into the marketplace</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:22:23">  in Silicon Valley terms an</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:22:26"> invention is  what we did at Xerox PARC which</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:22:29"> is  dabbling getting</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:22:32"> much closer to the word  new than news and both</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:22:35"> of them are real</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:22:38">  art forms with real process</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:22:41"> but they  have to get that clear because you  really</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:22:44"> want to know whether you're a lot  of problems and companies is</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:22:47"> the  confusion between those two things or  and</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:22:50"> then they have to decide what</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:22:53"> is the  cost of doing business for each of those</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:22:56">  I'll leave out in an innovation</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:22:59"> here  just focus on invention so</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:23:2"> so years ago</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:23:5">so Lickliter</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:23:8"> had this idea that you  couldn't think of a good goal</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:23:11"> while  you're behind the beltway in Washington</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:23:14">  anybody had the vision and he could say</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:23:17">  it in a sentence it was interactive</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:23:20">  computers as intellectual amplifiers</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:23:23">everybody on the planet pervasively  network worldwide</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:23:26"> that was it and when  everybody</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:23:29"> asked him what he was doing he  was just say that sentence and they'd</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:23:32">say well what about goes well we can't  think about goals here</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:23:35">you gonna operate he says well I'm gonna  I'm gonna fund people</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:23:38"> rather than  projects and</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:23:41"> so find really smart people</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:23:44">  who were interested in this vision and</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:23:47">  so so the Warriors</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:23:50"> said well</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:23:53"> you</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:23:56"> know  this isn't that going to produce a lot</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:23:59">  of failures  I</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:24:2"> think etc</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:24:5"> etcetera he says well we're  playing we're not playing</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:24:8"> golf we're  playing baseball some</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:24:11"> ty Cobbs lifetime  batting average is 367</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:24:14"> so like lawyers  say if we can bat if you look at what</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:24:17">  we're funding if we can bat 350</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:24:20"> on the  whole portfolio</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:24:23"> we will change the  entire</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:24:26"> world so that's what happened and</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:24:29">so the weary er said well what about the  650</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:24:32"> what about the 65 percent of failure</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:24:35">he says why it's the cost of doing  business and research</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:24:38"> this is the number  one thing that companies</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:24:41"> today do not  understand</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:24:44"> they have to put in their  turns because</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:24:47"> the way they think about  things generally they're not</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:24:50"> romantics  the bottom line people</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:24:53"> they're willing  to put a lot of money</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:24:56"> into advertising  which is rather ephemeral</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:24:59"> as far as ROI  but they think they</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:25:2"> understand it and  part of their problems they do not</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:25:5">  understand research and invention and</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:25:8"> so  they want to tighter rein on</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:25:11"> it but in  fact what the old-time funders</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:25:14"> did was  not to confuse responsibility</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:25:17"> in control  Lickliter said</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:25:20"> I'm responsible but I  can't be in control and</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:25:23"> you know we have  to run this</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:25:26"> stochastic lis  like like</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:25:29"> baseball and</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:25:32"> you know if we  get the best players and</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:25:35"> we bet  reasonably over 300</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:25:38"> we're just gonna  nail it and this</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:25:41">reasonable thing because if you look at  the return it's</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:25:44"> astronomical like a good  return</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:25:47"> on investment is like what 15%  17% I</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:25:50"> mean the return on investment from  Xerox</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:25:53"> from the</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:25:56"> laser printer alone at  Xerox PARC was 20,000</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:25:59"> percent was  zillions of</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:26:2"> you know sharks didn't  understand anything except the laser</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:26:5">  printer and it paid for park hundreds of  times</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:26:8"> over and yet Xerox</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:26:11"> is worried  about all the things that weren't going</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:26:14">  well they're forgetting because</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:26:17"> they  have confused making money</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:26:20"> with making  money safely</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:26:23"> and so they</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:26:26">always say well we're in business to  make money and</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:26:29"> I would say no you're not  you just want to make millions</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:26:32"> you know  research people want to make trillions</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:26:35">  because we're creating new paradigms</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:26:38">  here we're creating new industries</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:26:41"> so  that industry we create created only</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:26:44">  took about 20 years to pass</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:26:47"> the Ottoman  worldwide automobile bid industry</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:26:50"> and it  didn't come from incrementalism</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:26:53"> so there</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:26:56">  so a lot of it is just not these</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:26:59"> guys  not being able to call a spade a spade  they</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:27:2"> have a nice view of themselves and  they</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:27:5"> think of themselves as you know  hard-nosed business people but</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:27:8"> in fact  they're playing it safe and</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:27:11"> because of  their lack of try</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:27:14">anything that they don't think they  understand</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:27:17"> and because they don't really  understand Science and Technology they</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:27:20">  have no idea what the process actually</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:27:23">is and so they tend to want to be the  third or fourth person on their</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:27:26"> block to  do something they're hoping somebody</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:27:29">  else will do something and they have  zillions</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:27:32"> of words  I'm not saying Fujitsu does this but I'm</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:27:35">  saying it's typical of companies - it's</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:27:38">like the thing I said about change  everybody talks</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:27:41">gonna change this we're gonna have a  better process and all</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:27:44"> the stuff but in  the end when</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:27:47"> it comes down to am I gonna  change</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:27:50"> am I am</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:27:53"> I gonna go against  something I'm a my going to risk my  identity</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:27:56"> my house mortgage</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:27:59"> and so what  we call</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:28:2"> middle managers disease at Xerox  PARC was people</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:28:5"> who had gotten to the  stage where they're wearing more about  their house mortgage</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:28:8"> than what their  actual job was and</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:28:11"> I was leaking into  their job so</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:28:14"> I mean Taylor had a million  ways of getting around this</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:28:17"> and part of  it</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:28:20"> was the got himself fired</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:28:23"> even after  our greatest successes and</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:28:26">couple years later he got the National  Medal of Technology</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:28:29">  so Xerox was just</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:28:32">  and the irony was of course that Xerox</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:28:35">was that kind of company itself in the  50s</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:28:38"> but by the time we got to the early</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:28:41">  70s the original fireplugs</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:28:44"> had died</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:28:47"> Joe  Wilson had died these</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:28:50"> guys were just  like us if you go back to look at</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:28:53"> these  guys when IBM wouldn't</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:28:56"> accept the  prototype of the 914</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:28:59"> these guys were so  and</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:29:2"> there's a whole bunch of interesting  funny stuff</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:29:5"> with consulting companies in  IBM not wanting to</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:29:8"> dip in and delay of a  year and a half</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:29:11"> and something like this  and these guys are just so pissed off  that</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:29:14"> they use their life insurance in</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:29:17">  their house their own house mortgages to</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:29:20">  get the loans to build the first</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:29:23">  factories for the 914 of</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:29:26"> course they  became incredibly rich</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:29:29"> because you</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:29:32"> know  they had a there were no really no VCS</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:29:35">  that but these guys have risked every</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:29:38">damn thing they have because they knew  they had and they invented</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:29:41"> geography  twice the</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:29:44"> first first time around they  invented offset printing that</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:29:47"> was done  in the early 50s so</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:29:50"> these guys were just  fantastic guys</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:29:53"> but you know a decade  later Xerox is the fastest</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:29:56"> growing  company in the US and etc etc all of</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:29:59">sudden things were very different there  was a more of a caretaker</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:30:2"> management in  there and they had a lot of words</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:30:5"> but  one of the secrets to Xerox</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:30:8"> PARC were  was a certain agreement</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:30:11"> a hard agreement</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:30:14">  that Taylor had made with Xerox</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:30:17"> before  agreeing to set up this lab that</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:30:20">prevented</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:30:23"> Xerox from actually permuting  any</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:30:26"> of the research there for the first  five years and</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:30:29"> that is when we got most  of our stuff done and they</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:30:32"> signed that  agreement thinking Taylor would never</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:30:35">  use it he had to use it several times in  that first</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:30:38"> five you sit permuting you  mean messing</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:30:41"> with basically in any way</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:30:44">  zero and</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:30:47"> that was part of Taylor's sales  pitch too because</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:30:50"> none of us wanted to  work for a company yeah we're all by</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:30:53"> the  way I was the oldest person there</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:30:56"> as an  actual researcher I was 30</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:30:59">  Taylor the older people</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:31:2"> who were our  mentors Taylor hired as advisors there's</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:31:5">  an advisory board Butler Lampson was</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:31:8"> 27  Chuck</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:31:11"> was probably 26 Peter deutsches 25  or 24</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:31:14"> I'm gonna suck it out cuz you're  making me feel</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:31:17"> bad well but I mean this  is Taylor's theory</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:31:20"> right Taylor I paid  for all of our PhDs and</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:31:23"> and he knew the  ones</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:31:26"> who had really drunk the kool-aid  you</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:31:29"> know that that group of people just</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:31:32">  burned and</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:31:35"> we know we didn't get paid  that much but we</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:31:38"> burned to do this and  the problems the ARPA funding</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:31:41"> was going  away and so Taylor convinced</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:31:44"> us that  Xerox was the place</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:31:47"> we could finish up  the grand dream</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:31:50"> there and he had</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:31:53"> this  insulation and</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:31:56">you know as an</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:31:59"> he was lucky hugely lucky  that there</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:32:2"> was a downturn in business  and the</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:32:5"> berkeley computer company  corporation that butler</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:32:8"> and chuck  another two guys on the wall</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:32:11"> there had</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:32:14">  set up to do a system that failed  because</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:32:17"> of the financial thing and  taylor got the entire company which</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:32:20"> is  about nine incredible people that's</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:32:23"> when  I decided to stay cuz I was consulting  for</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:32:26"> the Taylor at that time and I</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:32:29">going to go to Carnegie to try and do a  personal computer</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:32:32"> with Gordon Bell and  man when those guys came in</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:32:35"> I realized  oh now we can do anything these</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:32:38"> guys can  do anything and so</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:32:41"> I just called up  Carnegie and you know got out</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:32:44"> of my  agreement there and thankfully</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:32:47"> they  forgave me after a while</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:32:50"> but I knew it  was just going to be</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:32:53"> super special even  when we had</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:32:56"> we only had about 12 people  here starting off but we</subtitle>
 +
 +
<subtitle id="0:32:59"> had 12 really  really good people</subtitle>

Latest revision as of 22:50, 6 December 2017

are there important
problems for  technology to solve you
within the scope of technology the ambit  of technological solution and if
so what  well
I think the you
know if you take  the route of technology technique
it  really means things that humans
make so  it's a much
larger word than the way we  use it today and
the Latin root was ours  from which arts you
know the word the  arts
didn't mean the Fine Arts back
then  but they meant the art of building
this  and that and the art of cooking and also
the art of dancing and the art of music  and stuff but basically
the term the  arts have gotten kind of co-opted
by the  Fine Arts in our era
so if you take a  look at the the
synergies between human  beings and their creations
you know  they're
more I think would be very  difficult to define
a human being  without looking at either
physical or  ideational
artifacts
because we actually  create language
out of a propensity  towards
language as we're growing up and  that language has a lot
of commitments  and meanings
to what the meaning of the  culture is so
so one way to
you could  you could imagine a
degree in technology  that was different than a degree in  engineering
that just included  engineering is one
part of it  that
could actually deal much more with  the
whole system so you
know I argued  with the young kid there
the  eye-tracking kid because he had started
  off with this idea which i think is a
  corporate mantra that
you know the  future
is going to be humans
fitting - I  mean machines fitting to humans
rather  than humans fitting to machines and it I
  don't think that that split actually
can  exist there's no question
but that the  machines we use change us
well they  don't change us we
change us machines  are just doing things and
it's it's our
interpretations of the things that  change that
change jeans are just  catalyst
they're that's because you know
  we have these cause and effect things
  it's like you insulted
me and
you know  unless unless you actually poke
your  fingers in my eye all you're doing is  creating
vibrations in the air and every
other every part of the insult is  something that I have
to interpret  myself
and react to right
so if people  were actually dealing with
actually going on you couldn't be  insulted
unless you chose to be so
so  what I asked you was it
was only  response was reasonable and you broaden  the
definition of technology has  typically used to encompass
an enormous  scope you're just which is cool and
we can sort of put that into question  and say okay given the enormous scope  and
then we're given the smaller scope  but I
corporate hat a little bit here and  trying
to think of okay we have
this  muscle this techno developmental
muscle  at a large corporation and it
would be  good to put it to use to good
use if  that's even possible so
the frame us a framework in which I was  asking the question
  I think the well let
me be elliptical  again but if you go
back to this
  interesting phenomenon that
if you look  at
the daily use of
people with say  computers of whatever
whatever kind
it's  hard to find any actual new
any  technology in there that is newer
than  thirty years old as
far as the  foundational ideas
so the whole idea of
  graphical user interfaces is came
from  the 60s and the one we happen to use
  today was invented at Parc but it wasn't  invented
in isolation of previous ones  the mouth
both the mouse and the tablet  were invented in
1964 most people don't  realize that the
ARPANET started working  in 1969
and it just morphed into
the  Internet the ethernet was
invented at  Xerox PARC around 1973
object-oriented
programming yeah so if you if you go  down the line then
as I pointed out that  if you take a
look at what people are  doing on the
on the web what I see is  mainly better-looking
graphics than we  could do 50 years
ago but what
I don't  see is angle Bart's ideas
so Engelbart  routinely
shared screens
in real time  for the entire work
and so  you know it
was an in an integral part  of the system
it wasn't an app that you  use it was actually
and if you're gonna work with somebody  and often
you could see the other person  if they're
more than two people  collaborating their
initials would show  up on the cursor so you
they're pointing at and this is all in  the 60s and
there's nothing about it is  hidden so
what I see is something much  more like a pop
culture today where  people
are completely indifferent to
the  past and it's
not that everything in the  past was good but it's real
ose the stuff that was better than the  idea
like Engelbart was smarter than  most people today and
so they can have  all the pleasures
they want inventing  something and having
that egocentric  satisfaction
that I did this but  basically it's
just a form of pollution  because
talking about something that's just for  a single person's
pleasure we're talking  about something that which everything is  done
is Rama file to two billion
people  now and that you just can't allow
people  who you
know whether willfully or
unconsciously
are you know just  polluting
the system because they don't  know any better  yeah
on the other hand we've
got this paradox  that
a lot of the
solutions in the past  that were better than the solutions  today
are not the solutions that we need
  because the problems are different  well
no it's even for the same problems  so
if you talk to the angle bard Ian's  back
then they knew they were just doing  a version of
the thing it happened their  version is
was a better set of thoughts  than the web thoughts
which were really  crude and almost
nothing of vision in  them but
the angle bargains would say  well you know you know don't
build a  religion about our stuff because we
have  to do some more qualitative iterations
  because there's
so much user interface  burden in
doing this stuff so when we  were doing
the you
know the small talk  stuff with
the GUI and
children and  desktop publishing and all that stuff
  it's your ex part the
technologic  technological stuff was
relatively easy  partly because we had
some geniuses so  he had this guy Chuck back
you know  they're all in the wall over there so  Chuck
Thacker Butler Lampson Metcalf did
  the ethernet I don't know whether stark  Starkweather
should be in there did the  laser printer so these guys
are really  incredible
and we we
had people besides  me who
were very well-versed in
user  interfaces but in fact user
interface  design is this
because
it is a design and something  that
fits it's really hundreds of  experiments and
almost every experiment  fails
in one way or another and so the  people who do this
successfully are have
  tools that allow them to to try ten
  different kinds of things a day and of
  course because the users learn you have
  to get a new batch of users rather
often  to in order
to see how users react to  something like this the first time
out  that's true in the generative side and  also the
you do put out in the world change as a  result of what
game theoretic moving target  yeah and so
one of the ironies of the
park GUI which has been you know it's  two billion
people and probably a
  million applications now have been
done  successfully in it it's
actually a  bicycle with training wheels
nobody knows the training wheels are on  it and
the reason is is that I designed  that user interface for children
and
one  of the things that was not a training  wheel
on it was never accepted by
Apple  and because it wasn't accepted by Apple
  Microsoft never appropriated it and
  because of that gnome didn't you
look at the way these things trickle  through and
so that particular idea
  which was
recognition of some of the  overlap
between children and adults  never is
not on any system today except
  except small talk which it always was on
  so what is that idea well the idea was  just that
it's not really a desktop that
  was Apple's misinterpretation
  even after we explained to them
not a  desktop it's or
if you want to think of  it as a desktop there are
an unlimited  number of them and they really didn't  get
that in that those a couple of demos
  we showed them and so if you think if  have
you know what could I do with an  unlimited number of desktops
answer is I can organize  but I
don't want to be application  centric because an application
is a  stovepipe what I really want is  something
where I can get every object  of every
kind that I need for this  project out
where I can do things with  them and I
want that desktop to remember
  their state over time because
most  people including children have
three or  four projects they're working on each  day
and instead what Mac
Windows did is to give you a situation  where you're kind of
and tearing things down and staying  inside of
applications and not being  able to integrate you
know in other  words what Apple and and
Microsoft did  was
was something that essentially
prevented what today would be called a  mashup
but you actually want it so if  you think in
object-oriented terms you  don't have to have applications
didn't have them at Parc you don't have  files
what you have is an unlimited  number of areas
which today you could  think of as web pages
and but you can do  all developmental
things on and that's  what I was giving my talk in
first so I  can
run so the important thing is it's  dynamic I get something
that's 10 times  as powerful as PowerPoint for
free and  there's a sorter so I can
show which  ones are those things that I want and  cool
and so forth so that was a one
of  the strongest ideas that we evolved
at  Parc probably around
76 or 77
  onwards never made it still
would be  useful so that so when I look at the
  interfaces today what I see because
I  know what it was and what
it could be I  see first a
bicycle with training wheels  on
but people can't see the training  wheels because they don't know
it's  supposed to be a bike and then the  second
thing I see after 20 30 years of  it is a
bicycle with training wheels on  it completely
encrusted with jewels and  rhinestones
because it's been decorated
  in a thousand different ways features
have been put on it but it's still got  the fucking training wheels on
it and so  this is actually the way things
go  because if people are not willing to  actually
like Apple did not want to hear
what the theory of that user interface  was even
after I was there for 12 years  because
they had expropriated it it was  now their thing
wasn't the
you know the  history of it was completely irrelevant  so
that was when I realized oh this is a  pop culture this
is the way it doesn't  matter how how good any
musician was of  the past or anything else the point of a
  pop culture is getting identity through  your own
actions a feeling of  participation it's not
the same as  where's Park was anything but a pop
culture Park was all about banding  together in
a pretty anonymous group of  experts
to make something grand
so the  part of the implication of this is
that  the the intellectual
ownership which  often brings with it resistance to
  change is is
it fundamental to corporate  models and if if
not then how do you  shake it well I
mean everybody has an  ego so
the real question any especially  any research
manager  ass is not does
this person have an ego  or not that's it's like
that guy saying  we're gonna have the
Machine fit to the  person
so the real real question your  ass you
always ask is what is the
  general expression of ego that this  person
exhibits and that the way they
  express is what allows them
to be
team  members and stars at the same
because you want to have stars dark  sparkles
full of stars but the key to  the
key to park and the arpa community  it came from
was how it cooperative was  how it was
able to cooperate was not was
  competitive up to
a point that was just  good enough to be
fun was mildly  competitive
but the truth was is
that  the 15 or 16 are per projects
cooperated  they swapped graduate students
they're  all working in on the same
vision but  they had different goals and
this gave a  lot of opportunity for
argument and this  was a was a community
that had learned  how to argue that's what I learned
when  I went to graduate school was for the  first time
in my life how to actually  argue because
when I was a kid I
  mistakenly thought that the
purpose of  an argument was to win it
  and but they you
know but argument in
the ARPA community was not that's sort  of what you do with debate
you know it's  sophistry learn
how to win a debate and  they
were not interested in that at all  and of course there were a couple of  exceptions
but I'm talking about  hundreds of people here
and the purpose  of these arguments was
to illuminate to  get out
different perspectives on  something and
park was a an argument if  you talk
to anybody who was there we  argued
incessantly with each other and  it frightened
Xerox actually because  they misinterpreted
it yeah taya well
I'm as strife  whereas
Taylor who was kind of the  genius
who had been one of the
funders and then was the guy who set up  Xerox
PARC he was a psychologist like
  the guy who initiated ARPA funding  Licklider
and Taylor never made
a  technical decision he trusted his  scientists
and his job as he saw
it was  to protect us from Xerox and
to set up a  climate
where these lone-wolf he he got
  most of the people at park a lot of
people were what you would call lone  wolves
he liked that because he didn't  you
know he wanted people who were  basically not amenable to being
managed  we needed management he
have a management structure and he  didn't
but then there's the question of  can
he set up something so that these  lone wolves will cooperate
when that's a  good idea and to
give you an example of  that there's no reason to cooperate on
a
programming language  pretty much everybody
at park could  invent and build
a programming language  or an operating system
so the idea is  anything goes there
but if you're gonna  do an alto
where and
the the mantra  there was that
everything that we do had  to be engineered for 100 users
so we  built a fake pdp-10 that
had to run a  hundred users as a time sharing system
and when we did the Alto we knew we were  gonna have to build
a hundred of it and  building a hundred machines
that in  today's terms would cost about eighty  thousand
bucks apiece  you need to have cooperation
and he got  it and
he didn't have to organize the  cooperation the
cooperation happened  maybe
even in a better way than he ever  dreamed although he had picked
us and  and it happened
because
this that and  the other well so one of the things
was  Taylor set up was
every single person
  who was at Park has to be totally
enthusiastic about the next person to  come in
it was a single black ball
and the reason that this
took forever  because
you know some people would know  this person  some
people would only know the  reputation person
would have to come in  and talk to everybody that would take
  days and it was
incredibly unwieldy so
  we grumbled however it worked perfectly  because
there were never any rivalries
  such as you would get when you just
plonk a new person who's really good  that
was the only kind they wanted there  so
there's no getting out to swords and  testing
out any of this stuff everybody  who's completely committed
to the new  member of the marriage
before it ever  happened and so so
by going through the  this enormous overhead
in the beginning  of the thing it
paid off many many times  over the decade
that Park was most  productive Taylor
had a lot of things  like that so let me
too much your time you should interview  him if I
would love to actually maybe  the nice thing is that you
Licklider I think was a little bit more  intuitive
but Taylor was a big fan of  lick
lighters and so he went
to town on  how Licklider did his thing and
applied  this when he was the
ARPA funder and  here's
a guy who funded the ARPANET
and  when Taylor
came to park and was in
the  position of setting up this lab of his  own
he was determined to try
every single one of these things that he  thought was a gem of a
principle to work  and he was willing to talk
was trying to do it wasn't anything  covert I
will make a point of that um so  just sort
of a wrap now maybe you and I  can continue some time down in LA
if you  were going
to if I was going to edit  this and tell the guys at Fujitsu
what  we should do as an institution to  innovate
more better different effect  well I think first
the there in Silicon  Valley now
  they should use the Silicon Valley  meanings
of the word innovate and invent  which
are I think made up by Regis  McKenna years
ago but so so innovation
  is taking an idea into the marketplace
  in Silicon Valley terms an
invention is  what we did at Xerox PARC which
is  dabbling getting
much closer to the word  new than news and both
of them are real
  art forms with real process
but they  have to get that clear because you  really
want to know whether you're a lot  of problems and companies is
the  confusion between those two things or  and
then they have to decide what
is the  cost of doing business for each of those
  I'll leave out in an innovation
here  just focus on invention so
so years ago
so Lickliter
had this idea that you  couldn't think of a good goal
while  you're behind the beltway in Washington
  anybody had the vision and he could say
  it in a sentence it was interactive
  computers as intellectual amplifiers
everybody on the planet pervasively  network worldwide
that was it and when  everybody
asked him what he was doing he  was just say that sentence and they'd
say well what about goes well we can't  think about goals here
you gonna operate he says well I'm gonna  I'm gonna fund people
rather than  projects and
so find really smart people
  who were interested in this vision and
  so so the Warriors
said well
you
know  this isn't that going to produce a lot
  of failures  I
think etc
etcetera he says well we're  playing we're not playing
golf we're  playing baseball some
ty Cobbs lifetime  batting average is 367
so like lawyers  say if we can bat if you look at what
  we're funding if we can bat 350
on the  whole portfolio
we will change the  entire
world so that's what happened and
so the weary er said well what about the  650
what about the 65 percent of failure
he says why it's the cost of doing  business and research
this is the number  one thing that companies
today do not  understand
they have to put in their  turns because
the way they think about  things generally they're not
romantics  the bottom line people
they're willing  to put a lot of money
into advertising  which is rather ephemeral
as far as ROI  but they think they
understand it and  part of their problems they do not
  understand research and invention and
so  they want to tighter rein on
it but in  fact what the old-time funders
did was  not to confuse responsibility
in control  Lickliter said
I'm responsible but I  can't be in control and
you know we have  to run this
stochastic lis  like like
baseball and
you know if we  get the best players and
we bet  reasonably over 300
we're just gonna  nail it and this
reasonable thing because if you look at  the return it's
astronomical like a good  return
on investment is like what 15%  17% I
mean the return on investment from  Xerox
from the
laser printer alone at  Xerox PARC was 20,000
percent was  zillions of
you know sharks didn't  understand anything except the laser
  printer and it paid for park hundreds of  times
over and yet Xerox
is worried  about all the things that weren't going
  well they're forgetting because
they  have confused making money
with making  money safely
and so they
always say well we're in business to  make money and
I would say no you're not  you just want to make millions
you know  research people want to make trillions
  because we're creating new paradigms
  here we're creating new industries
so  that industry we create created only
  took about 20 years to pass
the Ottoman  worldwide automobile bid industry
and it  didn't come from incrementalism
so there
  so a lot of it is just not these
guys  not being able to call a spade a spade  they
have a nice view of themselves and  they
think of themselves as you know  hard-nosed business people but
in fact  they're playing it safe and
because of  their lack of try
anything that they don't think they  understand
and because they don't really  understand Science and Technology they
  have no idea what the process actually
is and so they tend to want to be the  third or fourth person on their
block to  do something they're hoping somebody
  else will do something and they have  zillions
of words  I'm not saying Fujitsu does this but I'm
  saying it's typical of companies - it's
like the thing I said about change  everybody talks
gonna change this we're gonna have a  better process and all
the stuff but in  the end when
it comes down to am I gonna  change
am I am
I gonna go against  something I'm a my going to risk my  identity
my house mortgage
and so what  we call
middle managers disease at Xerox  PARC was people
who had gotten to the  stage where they're wearing more about  their house mortgage
than what their  actual job was and
I was leaking into  their job so
I mean Taylor had a million  ways of getting around this
and part of  it
was the got himself fired
even after  our greatest successes and
couple years later he got the National  Medal of Technology
  so Xerox was just
  and the irony was of course that Xerox
was that kind of company itself in the  50s
but by the time we got to the early
  70s the original fireplugs
had died
Joe  Wilson had died these
guys were just  like us if you go back to look at
these  guys when IBM wouldn't
accept the  prototype of the 914
these guys were so  and
there's a whole bunch of interesting  funny stuff
with consulting companies in  IBM not wanting to
dip in and delay of a  year and a half
and something like this  and these guys are just so pissed off  that
they use their life insurance in
  their house their own house mortgages to
  get the loans to build the first
  factories for the 914 of
course they  became incredibly rich
because you
know  they had a there were no really no VCS
  that but these guys have risked every
damn thing they have because they knew  they had and they invented
geography  twice the
first first time around they  invented offset printing that
was done  in the early 50s so
these guys were just  fantastic guys
but you know a decade  later Xerox is the fastest
growing  company in the US and etc etc all of
sudden things were very different there  was a more of a caretaker
management in  there and they had a lot of words
but  one of the secrets to Xerox
PARC were  was a certain agreement
a hard agreement
  that Taylor had made with Xerox
before  agreeing to set up this lab that
prevented
Xerox from actually permuting  any
of the research there for the first  five years and
that is when we got most  of our stuff done and they
signed that  agreement thinking Taylor would never
  use it he had to use it several times in  that first
five you sit permuting you  mean messing
with basically in any way
  zero and
that was part of Taylor's sales  pitch too because
none of us wanted to  work for a company yeah we're all by
the  way I was the oldest person there
as an  actual researcher I was 30
  Taylor the older people
who were our  mentors Taylor hired as advisors there's
  an advisory board Butler Lampson was
27  Chuck
was probably 26 Peter deutsches 25  or 24
I'm gonna suck it out cuz you're  making me feel
bad well but I mean this  is Taylor's theory
right Taylor I paid  for all of our PhDs and
and he knew the  ones
who had really drunk the kool-aid  you
know that that group of people just
  burned and
we know we didn't get paid  that much but we
burned to do this and  the problems the ARPA funding
was going  away and so Taylor convinced
us that  Xerox was the place
we could finish up  the grand dream
there and he had
this  insulation and
you know as an
he was lucky hugely lucky  that there
was a downturn in business  and the
berkeley computer company  corporation that butler
and chuck  another two guys on the wall
there had
  set up to do a system that failed  because
of the financial thing and  taylor got the entire company which
is  about nine incredible people that's
when  I decided to stay cuz I was consulting  for
the Taylor at that time and I
going to go to Carnegie to try and do a  personal computer
with Gordon Bell and  man when those guys came in
I realized  oh now we can do anything these
guys can  do anything and so
I just called up  Carnegie and you know got out
of my  agreement there and thankfully
they  forgave me after a while
but I knew it  was just going to be
super special even  when we had
we only had about 12 people  here starting off but we
had 12 really  really good people