Difference between revisions of "Alan Kay Interview by Dave Marvit (2013)"
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+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:0:12">are there important</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:0:15"> problems for technology to solve you</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:0:18">within the scope of technology the ambit of technological solution and if</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:0:21"> so what well</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:0:24"> I think the you</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:0:27"> know if you take the route of technology technique</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:0:30"> it really means things that humans</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:0:33"> make so it's a much</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:0:36"> larger word than the way we use it today and</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:0:39"> the Latin root was ours from which arts you</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:0:42"> know the word the arts</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:0:45"> didn't mean the Fine Arts back</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:0:48"> then but they meant the art of building</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:0:51"> this and that and the art of cooking and also</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:0:54">the art of dancing and the art of music and stuff but basically</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:0:57"> the term the arts have gotten kind of co-opted</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:1:0"> by the Fine Arts in our era</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:1:3"> so if you take a look at the the</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:1:6"> synergies between human beings and their creations</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:1:9"> you know they're</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:1:12"> more I think would be very difficult to define</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:1:15"> a human being without looking at either</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:1:18"> physical or ideational</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:1:21"> artifacts</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:1:24"> because we actually create language</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:1:27"> out of a propensity towards</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:1:30"> language as we're growing up and that language has a lot</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:1:33"> of commitments and meanings</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:1:36"> to what the meaning of the culture is so</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:1:39"> so one way to</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:1:42"> you could you could imagine a</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:1:45"> degree in technology that was different than a degree in engineering</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:1:48"> that just included engineering is one</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:1:51"> part of it that</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:1:54"> could actually deal much more with the</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:1:57"> whole system so you</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:2:0"> know I argued with the young kid there</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:2:3"> the eye-tracking kid because he had started</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:2:6"> off with this idea which i think is a</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:2:9"> corporate mantra that</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:2:12"> you know the future</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:2:15"> is going to be humans</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:2:18"> fitting - I mean machines fitting to humans</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:2:21"> rather than humans fitting to machines and it I</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:2:24"> don't think that that split actually</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:2:27"> can exist there's no question</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:2:30"> but that the machines we use change us</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:2:33"> well they don't change us we</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:2:36"> change us machines are just doing things and</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:2:39"> it's it's our</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:2:42">interpretations of the things that change that</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:2:45"> change jeans are just catalyst</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:2:48"> they're that's because you know</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:2:51"> we have these cause and effect things</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:2:54"> it's like you insulted</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:2:57"> me and</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:3:0"> you know unless unless you actually poke</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:3:3"> your fingers in my eye all you're doing is creating</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:3:6"> vibrations in the air and every</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:3:9">other every part of the insult is something that I have</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:3:12"> to interpret myself</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:3:15"> and react to right</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:3:18"> so if people were actually dealing with</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:3:21">actually going on you couldn't be insulted</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:3:24"> unless you chose to be so</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:3:27"> so what I asked you was it</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:3:30"> was only response was reasonable and you broaden the</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:3:33"> definition of technology has typically used to encompass</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:3:36"> an enormous scope you're just which is cool and</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:3:39">we can sort of put that into question and say okay given the enormous scope and</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:3:42"> then we're given the smaller scope but I</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:3:45">corporate hat a little bit here and trying</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:3:48"> to think of okay we have</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:3:51"> this muscle this techno developmental</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:3:54"> muscle at a large corporation and it</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:3:57"> would be good to put it to use to good</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:4:0"> use if that's even possible so</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:4:3">the frame us a framework in which I was asking the question</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:4:6"> I think the well let</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:4:9"> me be elliptical again but if you go</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:4:12"> back to this</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:4:15"> interesting phenomenon that</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:4:18"> if you look at</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:4:21"> the daily use of</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:4:24"> people with say computers of whatever</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:4:27"> whatever kind</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:4:30"> it's hard to find any actual new</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:4:33"> any technology in there that is newer</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:4:36"> than thirty years old as</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:4:39"> far as the foundational ideas</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:4:42"> so the whole idea of</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:4:45"> graphical user interfaces is came</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:4:48"> from the 60s and the one we happen to use</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:4:51"> today was invented at Parc but it wasn't invented</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:4:54"> in isolation of previous ones the mouth</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:4:57"> both the mouse and the tablet were invented in</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:5:0"> 1964 most people don't realize that the</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:5:3"> ARPANET started working in 1969</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:5:6"> and it just morphed into</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:5:9"> the Internet the ethernet was</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:5:12"> invented at Xerox PARC around 1973</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:5:15"> object-oriented</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:5:18">programming yeah so if you if you go down the line then</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:5:21"> as I pointed out that if you take a</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:5:24"> look at what people are doing on the</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:5:27"> on the web what I see is mainly better-looking</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:5:30"> graphics than we could do 50 years</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:5:33"> ago but what</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:5:36"> I don't see is angle Bart's ideas</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:5:39"> so Engelbart routinely</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:5:42"> shared screens</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:5:45"> in real time for the entire work</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:5:48"> and so you know it</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:5:51"> was an in an integral part of the system</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:5:54"> it wasn't an app that you use it was actually</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:5:57">and if you're gonna work with somebody and often</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:6:0"> you could see the other person if they're</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:6:3"> more than two people collaborating their</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:6:6"> initials would show up on the cursor so you</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:6:9">they're pointing at and this is all in the 60s and</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:6:12"> there's nothing about it is hidden so</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:6:15"> what I see is something much more like a pop</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:6:18"> culture today where people</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:6:21"> are completely indifferent to</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:6:24"> the past and it's</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:6:27"> not that everything in the past was good but it's real</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:6:30">ose the stuff that was better than the idea</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:6:33"> like Engelbart was smarter than most people today and</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:6:36"> so they can have all the pleasures</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:6:39"> they want inventing something and having</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:6:42"> that egocentric satisfaction</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:6:45"> that I did this but basically it's</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:6:48"> just a form of pollution because</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:6:51">talking about something that's just for a single person's</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:6:54"> pleasure we're talking about something that which everything is done</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:6:57"> is Rama file to two billion</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:7:0"> people now and that you just can't allow</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:7:3"> people who you</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:7:6"> know whether willfully or</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:7:9">unconsciously</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:7:12"> are you know just polluting</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:7:15"> the system because they don't know any better yeah</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:7:21">on the other hand we've</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:7:24"> got this paradox that</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:7:27"> a lot of the</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:7:30"> solutions in the past that were better than the solutions today</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:7:33"> are not the solutions that we need</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:7:36"> because the problems are different well</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:7:39"> no it's even for the same problems so</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:7:42"> if you talk to the angle bard Ian's back</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:7:45"> then they knew they were just doing a version of</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:7:48"> the thing it happened their version is</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:7:51"> was a better set of thoughts than the web thoughts</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:7:54"> which were really crude and almost</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:7:57"> nothing of vision in them but</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:8:0"> the angle bargains would say well you know you know don't</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:8:3"> build a religion about our stuff because we</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:8:6"> have to do some more qualitative iterations</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:8:9"> because there's</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:8:12"> so much user interface burden in</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:8:15"> doing this stuff so when we were doing</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:8:18"> the you</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:8:21"> know the small talk stuff with</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:8:24"> the GUI and</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:8:27"> children and desktop publishing and all that stuff</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:8:30"> it's your ex part the</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:8:33"> technologic technological stuff was</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:8:36"> relatively easy partly because we had</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:8:39"> some geniuses so he had this guy Chuck back</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:8:42"> you know they're all in the wall over there so Chuck</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:8:45"> Thacker Butler Lampson Metcalf did</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:8:48"> the ethernet I don't know whether stark Starkweather</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:8:51"> should be in there did the laser printer so these guys</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:8:54"> are really incredible</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:8:57"> and we we</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:9:0"> had people besides me who</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:9:3"> were very well-versed in</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:9:6"> user interfaces but in fact user</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:9:9"> interface design is this</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:9:12">because</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:9:15"> it is a design and something that</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:9:18"> fits it's really hundreds of experiments and</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:9:21"> almost every experiment fails</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:9:24"> in one way or another and so the people who do this</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:9:27"> successfully are have</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:9:30"> tools that allow them to to try ten</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:9:33"> different kinds of things a day and of</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:9:36"> course because the users learn you have</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:9:39"> to get a new batch of users rather</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:9:42"> often to in order</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:9:45"> to see how users react to something like this the first time</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:9:48"> out that's true in the generative side and also the</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:9:51">you do put out in the world change as a result of what</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:9:54">game theoretic moving target yeah and so</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:9:57"> one of the ironies of the</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:10:0">park GUI which has been you know it's two billion</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:10:3"> people and probably a</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:10:6"> million applications now have been</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:10:9"> done successfully in it it's</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:10:12"> actually a bicycle with training wheels</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:10:15">nobody knows the training wheels are on it and</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:10:18"> the reason is is that I designed that user interface for children</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:10:21"> and</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:10:24"> one of the things that was not a training wheel</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:10:27"> on it was never accepted by</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:10:30"> Apple and because it wasn't accepted by Apple</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:10:33"> Microsoft never appropriated it and</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:10:36"> because of that gnome didn't you</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:10:39"> look at the way these things trickle through and</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:10:42"> so that particular idea</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:10:45"> which was</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:10:48"> recognition of some of the overlap</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:10:51"> between children and adults never is</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:10:54"> not on any system today except</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:10:57"> except small talk which it always was on</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:11:0"> so what is that idea well the idea was just that</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:11:3"> it's not really a desktop that</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:11:6"> was Apple's misinterpretation</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:11:9"> even after we explained to them</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:11:12"> not a desktop it's or</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:11:15"> if you want to think of it as a desktop there are</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:11:18"> an unlimited number of them and they really didn't get</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:11:21"> that in that those a couple of demos</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:11:24"> we showed them and so if you think if have</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:11:27"> you know what could I do with an unlimited number of desktops</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:11:30">answer is I can organize but I</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:11:33"> don't want to be application centric because an application</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:11:36"> is a stovepipe what I really want is something</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:11:39"> where I can get every object of every</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:11:42"> kind that I need for this project out</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:11:45"> where I can do things with them and I</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:11:48"> want that desktop to remember</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:11:51"> their state over time because</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:11:54"> most people including children have</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:11:57"> three or four projects they're working on each day</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:12:0"> and instead what Mac</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:12:3">Windows did is to give you a situation where you're kind of</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:12:6">and tearing things down and staying inside of</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:12:9"> applications and not being able to integrate you</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:12:12"> know in other words what Apple and and</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:12:15"> Microsoft did was</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:12:18"> was something that essentially</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:12:21">prevented what today would be called a mashup</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:12:24"> but you actually want it so if you think in</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:12:27"> object-oriented terms you don't have to have applications</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:12:30">didn't have them at Parc you don't have files</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:12:33"> what you have is an unlimited number of areas</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:12:36"> which today you could think of as web pages</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:12:39"> and but you can do all developmental</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:12:42"> things on and that's what I was giving my talk in</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:12:45"> first so I can</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:12:48"> run so the important thing is it's dynamic I get something</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:12:51"> that's 10 times as powerful as PowerPoint for</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:12:54"> free and there's a sorter so I can</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:12:57"> show which ones are those things that I want and cool</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:13:0"> and so forth so that was a one</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:13:3"> of the strongest ideas that we evolved</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:13:6"> at Parc probably around</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:13:9"> 76 or 77</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:13:12"> onwards never made it still</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:13:15"> would be useful so that so when I look at the</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:13:18"> interfaces today what I see because</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:13:21"> I know what it was and what</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:13:24"> it could be I see first a</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:13:27"> bicycle with training wheels on</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:13:30"> but people can't see the training wheels because they don't know</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:13:33"> it's supposed to be a bike and then the second</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:13:36"> thing I see after 20 30 years of it is a</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:13:39"> bicycle with training wheels on it completely</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:13:42"> encrusted with jewels and rhinestones</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:13:45"> because it's been decorated</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:13:48"> in a thousand different ways features</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:13:51">have been put on it but it's still got the fucking training wheels on</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:13:54"> it and so this is actually the way things</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:13:57"> go because if people are not willing to actually</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:14:0"> like Apple did not want to hear</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:14:3">what the theory of that user interface was even</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:14:6"> after I was there for 12 years because</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:14:9"> they had expropriated it it was now their thing</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:14:12"> wasn't the</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:14:15"> you know the history of it was completely irrelevant so</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:14:18"> that was when I realized oh this is a pop culture this</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:14:21"> is the way it doesn't matter how how good any</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:14:24"> musician was of the past or anything else the point of a</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:14:27"> pop culture is getting identity through your own</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:14:30"> actions a feeling of participation it's not</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:14:33"> the same as where's Park was anything but a pop</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:14:36">culture Park was all about banding together in</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:14:39"> a pretty anonymous group of experts</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:14:42"> to make something grand</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:14:45"> so the part of the implication of this is</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:14:48"> that the the intellectual</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:14:51"> ownership which often brings with it resistance to</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:14:54"> change is is</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:14:57"> it fundamental to corporate models and if if</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:15:0"> not then how do you shake it well I</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:15:3"> mean everybody has an ego so</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:15:6"> the real question any especially any research</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:15:9"> manager ass is not does</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:15:12"> this person have an ego or not that's it's like</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:15:15"> that guy saying we're gonna have the</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:15:18"> Machine fit to the person</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:15:21"> so the real real question your ass you</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:15:24"> always ask is what is the</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:15:27"> general expression of ego that this person</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:15:29"> exhibits and that the way they</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:15:32"> express is what allows them</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:15:36"> to be</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:15:39"> team members and stars at the same</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:15:41">because you want to have stars dark sparkles</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:15:44"> full of stars but the key to the</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:15:47"> key to park and the arpa community it came from</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:15:50"> was how it cooperative was how it was</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:15:53"> able to cooperate was not was</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:15:56"> competitive up to</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:15:59"> a point that was just good enough to be</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:16:2"> fun was mildly competitive</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:16:5"> but the truth was is</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:16:8"> that the 15 or 16 are per projects</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:16:11"> cooperated they swapped graduate students</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:16:14"> they're all working in on the same</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:16:17"> vision but they had different goals and</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:16:20"> this gave a lot of opportunity for</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:16:23"> argument and this was a was a community</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:16:26"> that had learned how to argue that's what I learned</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:16:29"> when I went to graduate school was for the first time</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:16:32"> in my life how to actually argue because</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:16:35"> when I was a kid I</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:16:38"> mistakenly thought that the</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:16:41"> purpose of an argument was to win it</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:16:44"> and but they you</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:16:47"> know but argument in</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:16:50">the ARPA community was not that's sort of what you do with debate</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:16:53"> you know it's sophistry learn</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:16:56"> how to win a debate and they</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:16:59"> were not interested in that at all and of course there were a couple of exceptions</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:17:2"> but I'm talking about hundreds of people here</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:17:5"> and the purpose of these arguments was</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:17:8"> to illuminate to get out</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:17:11"> different perspectives on something and</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:17:14"> park was a an argument if you talk</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:17:17"> to anybody who was there we argued</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:17:20"> incessantly with each other and it frightened</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:17:23"> Xerox actually because they misinterpreted</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:17:26"> it yeah taya well</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:17:29">I'm as strife whereas</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:17:32"> Taylor who was kind of the genius</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:17:35"> who had been one of the</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:17:38">funders and then was the guy who set up Xerox</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:17:41"> PARC he was a psychologist like</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:17:44"> the guy who initiated ARPA funding Licklider</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:17:47"> and Taylor never made</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:17:50"> a technical decision he trusted his scientists</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:17:53"> and his job as he saw</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:17:56"> it was to protect us from Xerox and</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:17:59"> to set up a climate</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:18:2"> where these lone-wolf he he got</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:18:5"> most of the people at park a lot of</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:18:8">people were what you would call lone wolves</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:18:11"> he liked that because he didn't you</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:18:14"> know he wanted people who were basically not amenable to being</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:18:17"> managed we needed management he</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:18:20">have a management structure and he didn't</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:18:23"> but then there's the question of can</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:18:26"> he set up something so that these lone wolves will cooperate</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:18:29"> when that's a good idea and to</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:18:32"> give you an example of that there's no reason to cooperate on</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:18:35"> a</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:18:38">programming language pretty much everybody</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:18:41"> at park could invent and build</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:18:44"> a programming language or an operating system</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:18:47"> so the idea is anything goes there</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:18:50"> but if you're gonna do an alto</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:18:53"> where and</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:18:56"> the the mantra there was that</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:18:59"> everything that we do had to be engineered for 100 users</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:19:2"> so we built a fake pdp-10 that</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:19:5"> had to run a hundred users as a time sharing system</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:19:8">and when we did the Alto we knew we were gonna have to build</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:19:11"> a hundred of it and building a hundred machines</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:19:14"> that in today's terms would cost about eighty thousand</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:19:17"> bucks apiece you need to have cooperation</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:19:20"> and he got it and</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:19:23"> he didn't have to organize the cooperation the</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:19:26"> cooperation happened maybe</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:19:29"> even in a better way than he ever dreamed although he had picked</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:19:32"> us and and it happened</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:19:35"> because</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:19:38"> this that and the other well so one of the things</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:19:41"> was Taylor set up was</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:19:44"> every single person</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:19:47"> who was at Park has to be totally</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:19:50">enthusiastic about the next person to come in</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:19:53"> it was a single black ball</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:19:56">and the reason that this</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:19:59"> took forever because</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:20:2"> you know some people would know this person some</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:20:5"> people would only know the reputation person</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:20:8"> would have to come in and talk to everybody that would take</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:20:11"> days and it was</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:20:14"> incredibly unwieldy so</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:20:17"> we grumbled however it worked perfectly because</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:20:20"> there were never any rivalries</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:20:23"> such as you would get when you just</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:20:26">plonk a new person who's really good that</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:20:29"> was the only kind they wanted there so</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:20:32"> there's no getting out to swords and testing</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:20:35"> out any of this stuff everybody who's completely committed</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:20:38"> to the new member of the marriage</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:20:41"> before it ever happened and so so</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:20:44"> by going through the this enormous overhead</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:20:47"> in the beginning of the thing it</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:20:50"> paid off many many times over the decade</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:20:53"> that Park was most productive Taylor</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:20:56"> had a lot of things like that so let me</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:20:59">too much your time you should interview him if I</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:21:2"> would love to actually maybe the nice thing is that you</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:21:5">Licklider I think was a little bit more intuitive</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:21:8"> but Taylor was a big fan of lick</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:21:11"> lighters and so he went</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:21:14"> to town on how Licklider did his thing and</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:21:17"> applied this when he was the</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:21:20"> ARPA funder and here's</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:21:23"> a guy who funded the ARPANET</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:21:26"> and when Taylor</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:21:29"> came to park and was in</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:21:32"> the position of setting up this lab of his own</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:21:35"> he was determined to try</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:21:38">every single one of these things that he thought was a gem of a</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:21:41"> principle to work and he was willing to talk</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:21:44">was trying to do it wasn't anything covert I</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:21:47"> will make a point of that um so just sort</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:21:50"> of a wrap now maybe you and I can continue some time down in LA</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:21:53"> if you were going</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:21:56"> to if I was going to edit this and tell the guys at Fujitsu</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:21:59"> what we should do as an institution to innovate</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:22:2"> more better different effect well I think first</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:22:5"> the there in Silicon Valley now</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:22:8"> they should use the Silicon Valley meanings</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:22:11"> of the word innovate and invent which</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:22:14"> are I think made up by Regis McKenna years</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:22:17"> ago but so so innovation</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:22:20"> is taking an idea into the marketplace</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:22:23"> in Silicon Valley terms an</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:22:26"> invention is what we did at Xerox PARC which</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:22:29"> is dabbling getting</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:22:32"> much closer to the word new than news and both</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:22:35"> of them are real</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:22:38"> art forms with real process</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:22:41"> but they have to get that clear because you really</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:22:44"> want to know whether you're a lot of problems and companies is</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:22:47"> the confusion between those two things or and</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:22:50"> then they have to decide what</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:22:53"> is the cost of doing business for each of those</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:22:56"> I'll leave out in an innovation</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:22:59"> here just focus on invention so</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:23:2"> so years ago</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:23:5">so Lickliter</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:23:8"> had this idea that you couldn't think of a good goal</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:23:11"> while you're behind the beltway in Washington</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:23:14"> anybody had the vision and he could say</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:23:17"> it in a sentence it was interactive</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:23:20"> computers as intellectual amplifiers</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:23:23">everybody on the planet pervasively network worldwide</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:23:26"> that was it and when everybody</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:23:29"> asked him what he was doing he was just say that sentence and they'd</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:23:32">say well what about goes well we can't think about goals here</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:23:35">you gonna operate he says well I'm gonna I'm gonna fund people</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:23:38"> rather than projects and</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:23:41"> so find really smart people</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:23:44"> who were interested in this vision and</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:23:47"> so so the Warriors</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:23:50"> said well</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:23:53"> you</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:23:56"> know this isn't that going to produce a lot</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:23:59"> of failures I</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:24:2"> think etc</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:24:5"> etcetera he says well we're playing we're not playing</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:24:8"> golf we're playing baseball some</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:24:11"> ty Cobbs lifetime batting average is 367</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:24:14"> so like lawyers say if we can bat if you look at what</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:24:17"> we're funding if we can bat 350</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:24:20"> on the whole portfolio</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:24:23"> we will change the entire</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:24:26"> world so that's what happened and</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:24:29">so the weary er said well what about the 650</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:24:32"> what about the 65 percent of failure</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:24:35">he says why it's the cost of doing business and research</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:24:38"> this is the number one thing that companies</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:24:41"> today do not understand</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:24:44"> they have to put in their turns because</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:24:47"> the way they think about things generally they're not</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:24:50"> romantics the bottom line people</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:24:53"> they're willing to put a lot of money</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:24:56"> into advertising which is rather ephemeral</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:24:59"> as far as ROI but they think they</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:25:2"> understand it and part of their problems they do not</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:25:5"> understand research and invention and</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:25:8"> so they want to tighter rein on</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:25:11"> it but in fact what the old-time funders</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:25:14"> did was not to confuse responsibility</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:25:17"> in control Lickliter said</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:25:20"> I'm responsible but I can't be in control and</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:25:23"> you know we have to run this</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:25:26"> stochastic lis like like</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:25:29"> baseball and</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:25:32"> you know if we get the best players and</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:25:35"> we bet reasonably over 300</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:25:38"> we're just gonna nail it and this</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:25:41">reasonable thing because if you look at the return it's</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:25:44"> astronomical like a good return</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:25:47"> on investment is like what 15% 17% I</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:25:50"> mean the return on investment from Xerox</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:25:53"> from the</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:25:56"> laser printer alone at Xerox PARC was 20,000</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:25:59"> percent was zillions of</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:26:2"> you know sharks didn't understand anything except the laser</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:26:5"> printer and it paid for park hundreds of times</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:26:8"> over and yet Xerox</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:26:11"> is worried about all the things that weren't going</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:26:14"> well they're forgetting because</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:26:17"> they have confused making money</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:26:20"> with making money safely</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:26:23"> and so they</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:26:26">always say well we're in business to make money and</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:26:29"> I would say no you're not you just want to make millions</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:26:32"> you know research people want to make trillions</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:26:35"> because we're creating new paradigms</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:26:38"> here we're creating new industries</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:26:41"> so that industry we create created only</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:26:44"> took about 20 years to pass</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:26:47"> the Ottoman worldwide automobile bid industry</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:26:50"> and it didn't come from incrementalism</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:26:53"> so there</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:26:56"> so a lot of it is just not these</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:26:59"> guys not being able to call a spade a spade they</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:27:2"> have a nice view of themselves and they</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:27:5"> think of themselves as you know hard-nosed business people but</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:27:8"> in fact they're playing it safe and</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:27:11"> because of their lack of try</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:27:14">anything that they don't think they understand</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:27:17"> and because they don't really understand Science and Technology they</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:27:20"> have no idea what the process actually</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:27:23">is and so they tend to want to be the third or fourth person on their</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:27:26"> block to do something they're hoping somebody</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:27:29"> else will do something and they have zillions</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:27:32"> of words I'm not saying Fujitsu does this but I'm</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:27:35"> saying it's typical of companies - it's</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:27:38">like the thing I said about change everybody talks</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:27:41">gonna change this we're gonna have a better process and all</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:27:44"> the stuff but in the end when</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:27:47"> it comes down to am I gonna change</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:27:50"> am I am</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:27:53"> I gonna go against something I'm a my going to risk my identity</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:27:56"> my house mortgage</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:27:59"> and so what we call</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:28:2"> middle managers disease at Xerox PARC was people</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:28:5"> who had gotten to the stage where they're wearing more about their house mortgage</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:28:8"> than what their actual job was and</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:28:11"> I was leaking into their job so</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:28:14"> I mean Taylor had a million ways of getting around this</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:28:17"> and part of it</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:28:20"> was the got himself fired</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:28:23"> even after our greatest successes and</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:28:26">couple years later he got the National Medal of Technology</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:28:29"> so Xerox was just</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:28:32"> and the irony was of course that Xerox</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:28:35">was that kind of company itself in the 50s</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:28:38"> but by the time we got to the early</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:28:41"> 70s the original fireplugs</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:28:44"> had died</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:28:47"> Joe Wilson had died these</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:28:50"> guys were just like us if you go back to look at</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:28:53"> these guys when IBM wouldn't</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:28:56"> accept the prototype of the 914</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:28:59"> these guys were so and</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:29:2"> there's a whole bunch of interesting funny stuff</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:29:5"> with consulting companies in IBM not wanting to</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:29:8"> dip in and delay of a year and a half</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:29:11"> and something like this and these guys are just so pissed off that</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:29:14"> they use their life insurance in</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:29:17"> their house their own house mortgages to</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:29:20"> get the loans to build the first</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:29:23"> factories for the 914 of</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:29:26"> course they became incredibly rich</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:29:29"> because you</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:29:32"> know they had a there were no really no VCS</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:29:35"> that but these guys have risked every</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:29:38">damn thing they have because they knew they had and they invented</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:29:41"> geography twice the</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:29:44"> first first time around they invented offset printing that</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:29:47"> was done in the early 50s so</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:29:50"> these guys were just fantastic guys</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:29:53"> but you know a decade later Xerox is the fastest</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:29:56"> growing company in the US and etc etc all of</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:29:59">sudden things were very different there was a more of a caretaker</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:30:2"> management in there and they had a lot of words</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:30:5"> but one of the secrets to Xerox</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:30:8"> PARC were was a certain agreement</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:30:11"> a hard agreement</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:30:14"> that Taylor had made with Xerox</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:30:17"> before agreeing to set up this lab that</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:30:20">prevented</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:30:23"> Xerox from actually permuting any</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:30:26"> of the research there for the first five years and</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:30:29"> that is when we got most of our stuff done and they</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:30:32"> signed that agreement thinking Taylor would never</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:30:35"> use it he had to use it several times in that first</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:30:38"> five you sit permuting you mean messing</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:30:41"> with basically in any way</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:30:44"> zero and</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:30:47"> that was part of Taylor's sales pitch too because</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:30:50"> none of us wanted to work for a company yeah we're all by</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:30:53"> the way I was the oldest person there</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:30:56"> as an actual researcher I was 30</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:30:59"> Taylor the older people</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:31:2"> who were our mentors Taylor hired as advisors there's</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:31:5"> an advisory board Butler Lampson was</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:31:8"> 27 Chuck</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:31:11"> was probably 26 Peter deutsches 25 or 24</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:31:14"> I'm gonna suck it out cuz you're making me feel</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:31:17"> bad well but I mean this is Taylor's theory</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:31:20"> right Taylor I paid for all of our PhDs and</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:31:23"> and he knew the ones</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:31:26"> who had really drunk the kool-aid you</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:31:29"> know that that group of people just</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:31:32"> burned and</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:31:35"> we know we didn't get paid that much but we</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:31:38"> burned to do this and the problems the ARPA funding</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:31:41"> was going away and so Taylor convinced</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:31:44"> us that Xerox was the place</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:31:47"> we could finish up the grand dream</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:31:50"> there and he had</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:31:53"> this insulation and</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:31:56">you know as an</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:31:59"> he was lucky hugely lucky that there</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:32:2"> was a downturn in business and the</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:32:5"> berkeley computer company corporation that butler</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:32:8"> and chuck another two guys on the wall</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:32:11"> there had</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:32:14"> set up to do a system that failed because</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:32:17"> of the financial thing and taylor got the entire company which</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:32:20"> is about nine incredible people that's</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:32:23"> when I decided to stay cuz I was consulting for</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:32:26"> the Taylor at that time and I</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:32:29">going to go to Carnegie to try and do a personal computer</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:32:32"> with Gordon Bell and man when those guys came in</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:32:35"> I realized oh now we can do anything these</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:32:38"> guys can do anything and so</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:32:41"> I just called up Carnegie and you know got out</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:32:44"> of my agreement there and thankfully</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:32:47"> they forgave me after a while</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:32:50"> but I knew it was just going to be</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:32:53"> super special even when we had</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:32:56"> we only had about 12 people here starting off but we</subtitle> | ||
+ | |||
+ | <subtitle id="0:32:59"> had 12 really really good people</subtitle> |
Latest revision as of 22:50, 6 December 2017
are there important
problems for technology to solve you
within the scope of technology the ambit of technological solution and if
so what well
I think the you
know if you take the route of technology technique
it really means things that humans
make so it's a much
larger word than the way we use it today and
the Latin root was ours from which arts you
know the word the arts
didn't mean the Fine Arts back
then but they meant the art of building
this and that and the art of cooking and also
the art of dancing and the art of music and stuff but basically
the term the arts have gotten kind of co-opted
by the Fine Arts in our era
so if you take a look at the the
synergies between human beings and their creations
you know they're
more I think would be very difficult to define
a human being without looking at either
physical or ideational
artifacts
because we actually create language
out of a propensity towards
language as we're growing up and that language has a lot
of commitments and meanings
to what the meaning of the culture is so
so one way to
you could you could imagine a
degree in technology that was different than a degree in engineering
that just included engineering is one
part of it that
could actually deal much more with the
whole system so you
know I argued with the young kid there
the eye-tracking kid because he had started
off with this idea which i think is a
corporate mantra that
you know the future
is going to be humans
fitting - I mean machines fitting to humans
rather than humans fitting to machines and it I
don't think that that split actually
can exist there's no question
but that the machines we use change us
well they don't change us we
change us machines are just doing things and
it's it's our
interpretations of the things that change that
change jeans are just catalyst
they're that's because you know
we have these cause and effect things
it's like you insulted
me and
you know unless unless you actually poke
your fingers in my eye all you're doing is creating
vibrations in the air and every
other every part of the insult is something that I have
to interpret myself
and react to right
so if people were actually dealing with
actually going on you couldn't be insulted
unless you chose to be so
so what I asked you was it
was only response was reasonable and you broaden the
definition of technology has typically used to encompass
an enormous scope you're just which is cool and
we can sort of put that into question and say okay given the enormous scope and
then we're given the smaller scope but I
corporate hat a little bit here and trying
to think of okay we have
this muscle this techno developmental
muscle at a large corporation and it
would be good to put it to use to good
use if that's even possible so
the frame us a framework in which I was asking the question
I think the well let
me be elliptical again but if you go
back to this
interesting phenomenon that
if you look at
the daily use of
people with say computers of whatever
whatever kind
it's hard to find any actual new
any technology in there that is newer
than thirty years old as
far as the foundational ideas
so the whole idea of
graphical user interfaces is came
from the 60s and the one we happen to use
today was invented at Parc but it wasn't invented
in isolation of previous ones the mouth
both the mouse and the tablet were invented in
1964 most people don't realize that the
ARPANET started working in 1969
and it just morphed into
the Internet the ethernet was
invented at Xerox PARC around 1973
object-oriented
programming yeah so if you if you go down the line then
as I pointed out that if you take a
look at what people are doing on the
on the web what I see is mainly better-looking
graphics than we could do 50 years
ago but what
I don't see is angle Bart's ideas
so Engelbart routinely
shared screens
in real time for the entire work
and so you know it
was an in an integral part of the system
it wasn't an app that you use it was actually
and if you're gonna work with somebody and often
you could see the other person if they're
more than two people collaborating their
initials would show up on the cursor so you
they're pointing at and this is all in the 60s and
there's nothing about it is hidden so
what I see is something much more like a pop
culture today where people
are completely indifferent to
the past and it's
not that everything in the past was good but it's real
ose the stuff that was better than the idea
like Engelbart was smarter than most people today and
so they can have all the pleasures
they want inventing something and having
that egocentric satisfaction
that I did this but basically it's
just a form of pollution because
talking about something that's just for a single person's
pleasure we're talking about something that which everything is done
is Rama file to two billion
people now and that you just can't allow
people who you
know whether willfully or
unconsciously
are you know just polluting
the system because they don't know any better yeah
on the other hand we've
got this paradox that
a lot of the
solutions in the past that were better than the solutions today
are not the solutions that we need
because the problems are different well
no it's even for the same problems so
if you talk to the angle bard Ian's back
then they knew they were just doing a version of
the thing it happened their version is
was a better set of thoughts than the web thoughts
which were really crude and almost
nothing of vision in them but
the angle bargains would say well you know you know don't
build a religion about our stuff because we
have to do some more qualitative iterations
because there's
so much user interface burden in
doing this stuff so when we were doing
the you
know the small talk stuff with
the GUI and
children and desktop publishing and all that stuff
it's your ex part the
technologic technological stuff was
relatively easy partly because we had
some geniuses so he had this guy Chuck back
you know they're all in the wall over there so Chuck
Thacker Butler Lampson Metcalf did
the ethernet I don't know whether stark Starkweather
should be in there did the laser printer so these guys
are really incredible
and we we
had people besides me who
were very well-versed in
user interfaces but in fact user
interface design is this
because
it is a design and something that
fits it's really hundreds of experiments and
almost every experiment fails
in one way or another and so the people who do this
successfully are have
tools that allow them to to try ten
different kinds of things a day and of
course because the users learn you have
to get a new batch of users rather
often to in order
to see how users react to something like this the first time
out that's true in the generative side and also the
you do put out in the world change as a result of what
game theoretic moving target yeah and so
one of the ironies of the
park GUI which has been you know it's two billion
people and probably a
million applications now have been
done successfully in it it's
actually a bicycle with training wheels
nobody knows the training wheels are on it and
the reason is is that I designed that user interface for children
and
one of the things that was not a training wheel
on it was never accepted by
Apple and because it wasn't accepted by Apple
Microsoft never appropriated it and
because of that gnome didn't you
look at the way these things trickle through and
so that particular idea
which was
recognition of some of the overlap
between children and adults never is
not on any system today except
except small talk which it always was on
so what is that idea well the idea was just that
it's not really a desktop that
was Apple's misinterpretation
even after we explained to them
not a desktop it's or
if you want to think of it as a desktop there are
an unlimited number of them and they really didn't get
that in that those a couple of demos
we showed them and so if you think if have
you know what could I do with an unlimited number of desktops
answer is I can organize but I
don't want to be application centric because an application
is a stovepipe what I really want is something
where I can get every object of every
kind that I need for this project out
where I can do things with them and I
want that desktop to remember
their state over time because
most people including children have
three or four projects they're working on each day
and instead what Mac
Windows did is to give you a situation where you're kind of
and tearing things down and staying inside of
applications and not being able to integrate you
know in other words what Apple and and
Microsoft did was
was something that essentially
prevented what today would be called a mashup
but you actually want it so if you think in
object-oriented terms you don't have to have applications
didn't have them at Parc you don't have files
what you have is an unlimited number of areas
which today you could think of as web pages
and but you can do all developmental
things on and that's what I was giving my talk in
first so I can
run so the important thing is it's dynamic I get something
that's 10 times as powerful as PowerPoint for
free and there's a sorter so I can
show which ones are those things that I want and cool
and so forth so that was a one
of the strongest ideas that we evolved
at Parc probably around
76 or 77
onwards never made it still
would be useful so that so when I look at the
interfaces today what I see because
I know what it was and what
it could be I see first a
bicycle with training wheels on
but people can't see the training wheels because they don't know
it's supposed to be a bike and then the second
thing I see after 20 30 years of it is a
bicycle with training wheels on it completely
encrusted with jewels and rhinestones
because it's been decorated
in a thousand different ways features
have been put on it but it's still got the fucking training wheels on
it and so this is actually the way things
go because if people are not willing to actually
like Apple did not want to hear
what the theory of that user interface was even
after I was there for 12 years because
they had expropriated it it was now their thing
wasn't the
you know the history of it was completely irrelevant so
that was when I realized oh this is a pop culture this
is the way it doesn't matter how how good any
musician was of the past or anything else the point of a
pop culture is getting identity through your own
actions a feeling of participation it's not
the same as where's Park was anything but a pop
culture Park was all about banding together in
a pretty anonymous group of experts
to make something grand
so the part of the implication of this is
that the the intellectual
ownership which often brings with it resistance to
change is is
it fundamental to corporate models and if if
not then how do you shake it well I
mean everybody has an ego so
the real question any especially any research
manager ass is not does
this person have an ego or not that's it's like
that guy saying we're gonna have the
Machine fit to the person
so the real real question your ass you
always ask is what is the
general expression of ego that this person
exhibits and that the way they
express is what allows them
to be
team members and stars at the same
because you want to have stars dark sparkles
full of stars but the key to the
key to park and the arpa community it came from
was how it cooperative was how it was
able to cooperate was not was
competitive up to
a point that was just good enough to be
fun was mildly competitive
but the truth was is
that the 15 or 16 are per projects
cooperated they swapped graduate students
they're all working in on the same
vision but they had different goals and
this gave a lot of opportunity for
argument and this was a was a community
that had learned how to argue that's what I learned
when I went to graduate school was for the first time
in my life how to actually argue because
when I was a kid I
mistakenly thought that the
purpose of an argument was to win it
and but they you
know but argument in
the ARPA community was not that's sort of what you do with debate
you know it's sophistry learn
how to win a debate and they
were not interested in that at all and of course there were a couple of exceptions
but I'm talking about hundreds of people here
and the purpose of these arguments was
to illuminate to get out
different perspectives on something and
park was a an argument if you talk
to anybody who was there we argued
incessantly with each other and it frightened
Xerox actually because they misinterpreted
it yeah taya well
I'm as strife whereas
Taylor who was kind of the genius
who had been one of the
funders and then was the guy who set up Xerox
PARC he was a psychologist like
the guy who initiated ARPA funding Licklider
and Taylor never made
a technical decision he trusted his scientists
and his job as he saw
it was to protect us from Xerox and
to set up a climate
where these lone-wolf he he got
most of the people at park a lot of
people were what you would call lone wolves
he liked that because he didn't you
know he wanted people who were basically not amenable to being
managed we needed management he
have a management structure and he didn't
but then there's the question of can
he set up something so that these lone wolves will cooperate
when that's a good idea and to
give you an example of that there's no reason to cooperate on
a
programming language pretty much everybody
at park could invent and build
a programming language or an operating system
so the idea is anything goes there
but if you're gonna do an alto
where and
the the mantra there was that
everything that we do had to be engineered for 100 users
so we built a fake pdp-10 that
had to run a hundred users as a time sharing system
and when we did the Alto we knew we were gonna have to build
a hundred of it and building a hundred machines
that in today's terms would cost about eighty thousand
bucks apiece you need to have cooperation
and he got it and
he didn't have to organize the cooperation the
cooperation happened maybe
even in a better way than he ever dreamed although he had picked
us and and it happened
because
this that and the other well so one of the things
was Taylor set up was
every single person
who was at Park has to be totally
enthusiastic about the next person to come in
it was a single black ball
and the reason that this
took forever because
you know some people would know this person some
people would only know the reputation person
would have to come in and talk to everybody that would take
days and it was
incredibly unwieldy so
we grumbled however it worked perfectly because
there were never any rivalries
such as you would get when you just
plonk a new person who's really good that
was the only kind they wanted there so
there's no getting out to swords and testing
out any of this stuff everybody who's completely committed
to the new member of the marriage
before it ever happened and so so
by going through the this enormous overhead
in the beginning of the thing it
paid off many many times over the decade
that Park was most productive Taylor
had a lot of things like that so let me
too much your time you should interview him if I
would love to actually maybe the nice thing is that you
Licklider I think was a little bit more intuitive
but Taylor was a big fan of lick
lighters and so he went
to town on how Licklider did his thing and
applied this when he was the
ARPA funder and here's
a guy who funded the ARPANET
and when Taylor
came to park and was in
the position of setting up this lab of his own
he was determined to try
every single one of these things that he thought was a gem of a
principle to work and he was willing to talk
was trying to do it wasn't anything covert I
will make a point of that um so just sort
of a wrap now maybe you and I can continue some time down in LA
if you were going
to if I was going to edit this and tell the guys at Fujitsu
what we should do as an institution to innovate
more better different effect well I think first
the there in Silicon Valley now
they should use the Silicon Valley meanings
of the word innovate and invent which
are I think made up by Regis McKenna years
ago but so so innovation
is taking an idea into the marketplace
in Silicon Valley terms an
invention is what we did at Xerox PARC which
is dabbling getting
much closer to the word new than news and both
of them are real
art forms with real process
but they have to get that clear because you really
want to know whether you're a lot of problems and companies is
the confusion between those two things or and
then they have to decide what
is the cost of doing business for each of those
I'll leave out in an innovation
here just focus on invention so
so years ago
so Lickliter
had this idea that you couldn't think of a good goal
while you're behind the beltway in Washington
anybody had the vision and he could say
it in a sentence it was interactive
computers as intellectual amplifiers
everybody on the planet pervasively network worldwide
that was it and when everybody
asked him what he was doing he was just say that sentence and they'd
say well what about goes well we can't think about goals here
you gonna operate he says well I'm gonna I'm gonna fund people
rather than projects and
so find really smart people
who were interested in this vision and
so so the Warriors
said well
you
know this isn't that going to produce a lot
of failures I
think etc
etcetera he says well we're playing we're not playing
golf we're playing baseball some
ty Cobbs lifetime batting average is 367
so like lawyers say if we can bat if you look at what
we're funding if we can bat 350
on the whole portfolio
we will change the entire
world so that's what happened and
so the weary er said well what about the 650
what about the 65 percent of failure
he says why it's the cost of doing business and research
this is the number one thing that companies
today do not understand
they have to put in their turns because
the way they think about things generally they're not
romantics the bottom line people
they're willing to put a lot of money
into advertising which is rather ephemeral
as far as ROI but they think they
understand it and part of their problems they do not
understand research and invention and
so they want to tighter rein on
it but in fact what the old-time funders
did was not to confuse responsibility
in control Lickliter said
I'm responsible but I can't be in control and
you know we have to run this
stochastic lis like like
baseball and
you know if we get the best players and
we bet reasonably over 300
we're just gonna nail it and this
reasonable thing because if you look at the return it's
astronomical like a good return
on investment is like what 15% 17% I
mean the return on investment from Xerox
from the
laser printer alone at Xerox PARC was 20,000
percent was zillions of
you know sharks didn't understand anything except the laser
printer and it paid for park hundreds of times
over and yet Xerox
is worried about all the things that weren't going
well they're forgetting because
they have confused making money
with making money safely
and so they
always say well we're in business to make money and
I would say no you're not you just want to make millions
you know research people want to make trillions
because we're creating new paradigms
here we're creating new industries
so that industry we create created only
took about 20 years to pass
the Ottoman worldwide automobile bid industry
and it didn't come from incrementalism
so there
so a lot of it is just not these
guys not being able to call a spade a spade they
have a nice view of themselves and they
think of themselves as you know hard-nosed business people but
in fact they're playing it safe and
because of their lack of try
anything that they don't think they understand
and because they don't really understand Science and Technology they
have no idea what the process actually
is and so they tend to want to be the third or fourth person on their
block to do something they're hoping somebody
else will do something and they have zillions
of words I'm not saying Fujitsu does this but I'm
saying it's typical of companies - it's
like the thing I said about change everybody talks
gonna change this we're gonna have a better process and all
the stuff but in the end when
it comes down to am I gonna change
am I am
I gonna go against something I'm a my going to risk my identity
my house mortgage
and so what we call
middle managers disease at Xerox PARC was people
who had gotten to the stage where they're wearing more about their house mortgage
than what their actual job was and
I was leaking into their job so
I mean Taylor had a million ways of getting around this
and part of it
was the got himself fired
even after our greatest successes and
couple years later he got the National Medal of Technology
so Xerox was just
and the irony was of course that Xerox
was that kind of company itself in the 50s
but by the time we got to the early
70s the original fireplugs
had died
Joe Wilson had died these
guys were just like us if you go back to look at
these guys when IBM wouldn't
accept the prototype of the 914
these guys were so and
there's a whole bunch of interesting funny stuff
with consulting companies in IBM not wanting to
dip in and delay of a year and a half
and something like this and these guys are just so pissed off that
they use their life insurance in
their house their own house mortgages to
get the loans to build the first
factories for the 914 of
course they became incredibly rich
because you
know they had a there were no really no VCS
that but these guys have risked every
damn thing they have because they knew they had and they invented
geography twice the
first first time around they invented offset printing that
was done in the early 50s so
these guys were just fantastic guys
but you know a decade later Xerox is the fastest
growing company in the US and etc etc all of
sudden things were very different there was a more of a caretaker
management in there and they had a lot of words
but one of the secrets to Xerox
PARC were was a certain agreement
a hard agreement
that Taylor had made with Xerox
before agreeing to set up this lab that
prevented
Xerox from actually permuting any
of the research there for the first five years and
that is when we got most of our stuff done and they
signed that agreement thinking Taylor would never
use it he had to use it several times in that first
five you sit permuting you mean messing
with basically in any way
zero and
that was part of Taylor's sales pitch too because
none of us wanted to work for a company yeah we're all by
the way I was the oldest person there
as an actual researcher I was 30
Taylor the older people
who were our mentors Taylor hired as advisors there's
an advisory board Butler Lampson was
27 Chuck
was probably 26 Peter deutsches 25 or 24
I'm gonna suck it out cuz you're making me feel
bad well but I mean this is Taylor's theory
right Taylor I paid for all of our PhDs and
and he knew the ones
who had really drunk the kool-aid you
know that that group of people just
burned and
we know we didn't get paid that much but we
burned to do this and the problems the ARPA funding
was going away and so Taylor convinced
us that Xerox was the place
we could finish up the grand dream
there and he had
this insulation and
you know as an
he was lucky hugely lucky that there
was a downturn in business and the
berkeley computer company corporation that butler
and chuck another two guys on the wall
there had
set up to do a system that failed because
of the financial thing and taylor got the entire company which
is about nine incredible people that's
when I decided to stay cuz I was consulting for
the Taylor at that time and I
going to go to Carnegie to try and do a personal computer
with Gordon Bell and man when those guys came in
I realized oh now we can do anything these
guys can do anything and so
I just called up Carnegie and you know got out
of my agreement there and thankfully
they forgave me after a while
but I knew it was just going to be
super special even when we had
we only had about 12 people here starting off but we
had 12 really really good people