View source for Tale of Two Schools: Technology in the Classroom (1999)

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<subtitle id='00:00:00'> and paid out to put computers in our classroom but can computers really</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:00:04'>create the literate children that we want actor Donald Sutherland has made</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:00:10'>more than a hundred films but he's quick to say that movies are not the influential force that some believe them</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:00:15'>to be movies don't shape anything they echo things they report what's already</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:00:21'>happened they don't lead they define the events so that people can follow but</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:00:27'>they don't lead these stories are coming up next on life and times tonight for</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:00:31'>Tuesday the 1st of June 1999 [Music]</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:00:39'>life and times tonight is made possible by the following corporations and</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:00:43'>foundations the James Irvine foundation</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:00:47'>which is dedicated to the development of an informed California citizenry</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:00:57'>gte a company committed to</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:01:01'>telecommunications excellence and an open dialogue among all people</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:01:08'>Bank of America you start a new job</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:01:12'>today what he did how can Bank of</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:01:17'>America help you</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:01:22'>Bank of America and the elk a quitter foundation</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:01:28'>dedicated to improving the quality of life by supporting innovative endeavors</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:01:33'>in the fields of medicine health science and education</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:01:39'>[Music]</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:01:49'>good evening I'm Pat Morrison and our top story tonight is kids computers and</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:01:53'>literacy and what that triumvirate promises California already spends</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:01:57'>millions of dollars each year to put computers in every classroom and politicians from President Clinton to</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:02:02'>Governor Davis have been touting the benefits of computers as teaching tools in some cases computers are edging out</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:02:08'>art and music and physical education programs both in terms of class time in</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:02:12'>classroom dollars but before we all climb aboard the high-tech bandwagon</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:02:16'>some experts are warning us to wait a minute we need to be sure that computers</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:02:20'>will indeed deliver something more than Mouse skills so far they say there is no</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:02:24'>hard evidence that computers can improve learning significantly gayi has more</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:02:30'>this is a tale of two schools open charter in Los Angeles where you'll find</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:02:35'>computers integrated into every classroom and Hyland Hall in Northridge</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:02:40'>where you'll find a computer in any classroom at all two schools with</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:02:46'>similar goals to teach youngsters to be lifelong learners but their means to</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:02:50'>that end is quite different in order for me to do the job that I need to do to</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:02:56'>prepare my kids for the 21st century this is it i if I do not use them I'm</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:03:01'>not doing what I should be doing in order to prepare them for the world that they're gonna live in BJ Alan Khan is a</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:03:07'>fourth and fifth grade teacher at open charter and the members were schools</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:03:11'>tech teams open charter is one of the most technologically advanced public</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:03:16'>schools in the nation fifteen years ago it was adopted by the Apple computer</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:03:21'>company in an educational experiment every classroom is wired to the Internet</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:03:26'>and there's a computer to every two students it's sometimes boring when</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:03:33'>sitting down and just listening to the teacher when you could be a computer</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:03:40'>typing and having fun Alencon these</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:03:45'>computers improve teaching practices and student achievement even though it's</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:03:49'>never been proven in the research proof she says is for students I truly</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:03:54'>believe our kids are more articulate they're better problem solvers they're</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:03:59'>better writers because we have the technology here well the faculty here</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:04:03'>encourages students to thumb a ride on the information superhighway the</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:04:08'>teachers at Highland Hall believe that kids should learn problem-solving skills</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:04:12'>the old-fashioned way through hands-on</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:04:16'>experience but at Highland Hall</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:04:22'>things are different kindergarteners learn to count by jumping rope and spend</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:04:26'>the day hand crocheting and creating animals out of beeswax the school</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:04:30'>believes in the Waldorf philosophy that children learned best especially in the</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:04:35'>early childhood years using a hands-on approach they need to have the</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:04:40'>foundation of good motor skills of all</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:04:45'>the synapses and neural pathways in</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:04:49'>place as a result of having to have having played well who can tell me a</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:04:54'>little something what you know about ancient Greece what there is little</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:04:59'>technology at Highland Hall because the faculty believes the students become less socialized less motivated and less</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:05:05'>imaginative they believe using computers Rob's the student of a cherished</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:05:10'>commodity in learning time at the time you had to take to look up a word but</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:05:15'>think of all the process that you went through and searching for that word in</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:05:19'>the dictionary how many new words you were exposed to what the experience was</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:05:24'>you had that luxury of time the computer gives you the answer like that</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:05:29'>fifth-grade teacher Lisa cinema says a computer is just a tool and even as we</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:05:34'>face the 21st century she believes the old tools are better when you're given a</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:05:40'>pencil you're free to express yourself and that is the the the participatory</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:05:45'>part of learning that is sometimes missed with computers and children young</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:05:51'>children have to learn by doing that's how they learn best two schools of</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:05:55'>thought open charter believes teaching students this technology is his obligation to</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:06:00'>prepare them for the real world of the 21st century</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:06:04'>although Highland Hall questions whether this virtual world is a real world at</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:06:09'>all but life in Times tonight I'm gay ye the question becomes then</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:06:14'>where the computers are a teaching tool or merely a costly and trendy toy we put</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:06:19'>that question in others to Alan Kay who was with Apple computers when he designed the computer system we just saw</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:06:24'>at open charter school he believes the computers can and should play a key role</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:06:28'>in children's education and with us as well as Richard Clarke he is a professor</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:06:32'>of educational psychology and technology at USC where he is also an expert in</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:06:37'>technology based education he questions the contribution that computers can make</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:06:41'>in the classroom welcome gentlemen both to life and times tonight you seem to</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:06:45'>epitomize the two versions of Education that we see there but let me start with</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:06:50'>you mr. king we put a lot of money into technology over the years anyway and if</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:06:54'>we're so rich in this country why don't we why aren't we smart well we could</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:06:58'>learn how to read better when computers help us read better I doubt it I think</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:07:03'>that both of the schools you saw our</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:07:07'>part right and part wrong because people tend to like to adopt highly focused</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:07:13'>almost religious approaches we all think about computers is not to emphasize them</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:07:19'>as a material because nobody would say we should have a paper-based curriculum</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:07:23'>it doesn't really make sense curriculum is made out of ideas and techniques and</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:07:29'>environments for children to explore and the real question about computers is</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:07:33'>what is special about it and one of the things that's special about it is the</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:07:37'>way you can learn science and math on it that's what I've devoted my interest to</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:07:41'>I don't think it should replace any of the other media that we have and that</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:07:45'>isn't the same even if the open school to do do you as your concern that you</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:07:49'>see it's squeezing out as a teaching tool as a substitute even for a teacher</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:07:53'>rather than there's a tool I think it's mostly a symbolic token right now that people are buying it because it's the</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:07:58'>easiest way to say we're doing something about education but in fact that the</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:08:03'>computer won't have any impact until teachers learn how to teach science and math and when they learn that the</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:08:08'>computer will be a natural amplifier just like it's very hard to learn music</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:08:13'>unless you have musicians around and then the anno is a natural amplifier and the</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:08:17'>music is not in the piano it's in the students mr. Clark you may have some</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:08:21'>areas of agreement then with mr. K on this the example that comes to mind reading my own newspaper the LA Times</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:08:26'>today a front-page story about this very subject and the reporter used the word discreet there are two ways to spell</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:08:31'>discreet he chose the wrong one for his usage but the computer only knew that it</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:08:35'>was spelled correctly not that it was misused was that kind of an example of perhaps our will over reliance on</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:08:40'>computers to teach us things when in fact we need to program them and learn</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:08:44'>ourselves before we can make them our tools well it was interesting that one</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:08:48'>of the teachers in the in the piece talked about the fact that computer</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:08:52'>spots a misspelled word instantly and of course that's not always the case but it</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:08:56'>is the case that her impression was that having computers make decisions and</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:09:01'>solve problems intellectually is a good approach and I'd sort of doubt that's</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:09:05'>the case why is that well one of the things about the use of computers and</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:09:10'>classrooms that's been very obvious in the research on computers for the last 15 years is that children get the idea</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:09:17'>that it's easier to learn with a computer than it is with a book for example or with some other medium now</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:09:23'>that's wrong of course it's not easier it might be quicker to get certain types</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:09:27'>of information but it's not necessarily easier to learn with them but because they believe that the evidence is that</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:09:32'>they take a kind of mindless approach to it they literally don't work as hard they don't think it's hard and as a</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:09:37'>consequence they don't learn as much how would you come down on the side of that</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:09:41'>mr. Kay especially the ideas you're hearing from the kids because it's fun it's all part of this emphasis that</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:09:45'>education has to be entertaining that you need a performance in the classroom well as Neil postman pointed out a long</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:09:50'>time ago that Sesame Street made it very</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:09:54'>difficult for kids to go to school because they could never measure up to there's no big bird up there no big</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:09:58'>birds and I think I would agree with most of I'm supposed to be arguing I</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:10:04'>know right I would agree with most of this because I think that children just</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:10:10'>like the piano the piano will play any note in the pitch and so it's a very bad</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:10:15'>instrument to start off with it's better to start off with a violin or singing or</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:10:19'>both before you go to the piano because the piano automates a lot of things that</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:10:24'>musicians are supposed to pay attention to that doesn't mean we should throw away the piano it</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:10:28'>means that we should take the right approach into going into something that instead of being a prosthetic which i</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:10:34'>think is what most people are worried about is it's an amplifier so the approach as you say people be seem to be</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:10:39'>embracing this uncritically that it that in fact rather than the information age</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:10:43'>we live in the data age and people aren't learning how to discern and some</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:10:47'>of the numbers that the people on your side mr. Clark talk about is how</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:10:51'>information is retained reading is the least effective way to retain information talking watching it looking</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:10:57'>at pictures is the most effective but it seems like we're almost going preliterate in our embrace it's too bad</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:11:01'>you can't be bad you can't argue the merits of democracy using stained glass</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:11:05'>windows there would be a snap one of the big points about reading is that it is</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:11:10'>difficult it's hard fun and the very important thing about hard fun is it</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:11:15'>leaves you a different person thereafter and so trying to use</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:11:19'>something that smooths the way that takes you on a ride I think is the wrong way to look at education what you want</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:11:24'>is no gratuitous difficulties but you want good hard fun that leads you into</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:11:30'>making you a different kind of person mr. Clark how can people in your position put the brakes on or at least</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:11:35'>issues some some reasonable caveats that will be heated by the likes of President</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:11:39'>Clinton who seems to have embraced this uncritically well it's a it's a very</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:11:43'>very difficult problem because there's a huge political incentive to act as if</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:11:48'>we've made some serious contribution to schools because we've hooked them up with the internet and put a few</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:11:52'>computers in schools and we wash our hands of it and the evidence is by the</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:11:56'>way that while 90% of the schools in the United States as of last year were</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:12:00'>hooked up to the Internet only about 18 percent or we're making any significant</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:12:04'>use of it in the classroom what I'm sorry go ahead well it's just the case</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:12:09'>that there's a huge amount of information out there for people that is available already there's more</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:12:14'>information now that the Internet's and classrooms but people are not making any kind of use of it in any central way and</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:12:19'>it's not always reliable isn't knowing who gets email knows about about seeing</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:12:23'>these matters repeated that article you spoke about in the times this morning</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:12:27'>mentioned there were 700 different software packages focused on reading and writing alone that were available to</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:12:32'>schools and how do you choose among all that what so how do you separate out the</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:12:36'>week from the job I'd like to ask both of you mr. Clark first one of the great concerns we've seen studies of it</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:12:41'>recently the people who spend something on the order of more than three hours a day in front of a computer screen become isolated</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:12:47'>their social skills tend to Domitian we're talking about adults who've already gone through a socializing</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:12:52'>process what does this promise for kids because you can't really play a piano I</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:12:56'>do except for a few pieces of music written specifically and you can't sit</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:13:00'>on a computer two at a time either what are your concerns on this well actually</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:13:04'>I don't I don't think that's as large an issue as some people do as a matter of fact I see some benefits for computer</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:13:09'>screens for certain types of children who have learning difficulties it focuses their attention and attention is</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:13:14'>usually a big problem with kids particularly in the earlier years mr. Kay yeah I think that when we see</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:13:20'>children in the classroom using computers they'd like to double up that's why we only put one for every two</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:13:26'>kids we wanted to have plenty around we wanted to have them in the classroom make them socialize no we didn't want to</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:13:30'>make them socialize they already are social we wanted to allow them to share</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:13:35'>what they were what they were doing with somebody else and also children tend to have different personality temperaments</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:13:41'>and so some of them like to be active and some of them like to be thoughtful and it's generally a good idea to let</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:13:47'>the kids hook up into groups as part of just simply a sales job that the</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:13:51'>computers are the hot item in it's not it's the transistor radio once was is</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:13:56'>the refrigerator once was as I said I think it's a sacred you know it's kind of magic it's a magic thing and it's a</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:14:02'>way of avoiding responsibility and it shifts attention away from the really critical issues I think in schools we</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:14:08'>act like we've made a significant contribution when in fact this instructional problem the teachers have</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:14:13'>miss schools confront it is not solved in any way by putting a computer in a classroom or hooking up to the Internet</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:14:18'>well here's one which is we've gotta wrap it but would you both agree the best advice is Festina lente make hay</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:14:23'>slowly on this there we go make a slowly is good and I would</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:14:27'>definitely try and understand what they're actually good for analysis thank</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:14:31'>you both Alan Kay and of course Richard Clarke we thank you both for joining us on life and times tonight</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:14:35'>up next part two I do Donald Sutherland</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:14:39'>then hugh hewitt together again</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:14:43'>[Music]</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:14:52'>[Music]</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:14:58'>Donald Sutherland has made more than 100 films you know him perhaps as the</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:15:02'>troubled father in ordinary people or maybe is the mysterious government informant in JFK now he is stepping into</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:15:08'>a new venue his first stage appearance in Los Angeles where he plays a Nobel</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:15:12'>Prize winning author in the play Enigma Variations his appearance also gave you</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:15:17'>here at a chance to talk to Sutherland about his films and some of the characters he's portrayed I'd like to</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:15:22'>talk about some of your roles and how you came to get ready for them he played</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:15:26'>an art dealer in six degrees of separation opposite Stockard Channing</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:15:30'>and you hid kind of perfect pitch of a mixture of arrogance and yet informed</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:15:35'>knowledge and aesthetic sensibility how'd you prepare to do that one I I was</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:15:40'>driving from my house in Quebec in the winter to go see fred skep see because</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:15:46'>I'd agreed to see him even though I was going to turn the movie down and he was</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:15:52'>in New York during the six or seven hours of driving the eight hours of</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:15:56'>driving I realized who the character was</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:16:00'>and and how to do him and I was so</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:16:06'>thrifty my god to say no to Fred and I</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:16:10'>gosh I embraced him we talked for hours it was just delicious the and the key to</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:16:16'>it probably came he's called flan his real name is Flanders and for a Canadian</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:16:22'>Flanders Fields you know where the poppies grow is where all of our heroes</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:16:27'>are buried and flan is a custard it's a</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:16:33'>thing like that and so he had and his birth</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:16:37'>this Flanders and something that was heroic and what he had become was flan</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:16:43'>and so it was the juxtaposition of those two images in my head that started to</subtitle>
<subtitle id='00:16:47'>germinate and grow and I don't want to lose our life here I</subtitle>
<subtitle id='1012'>don't want all the dead to pile up and crush it won't with </subtitle>