Tale of Two Schools: Technology in the Classroom (1999)

and paid out to put computers in our classroom but can computers really

create the literate children that we want actor Donald Sutherland has made

more than a hundred films but he's quick to say that movies are not the influential force that some believe them

to be movies don't shape anything they echo things they report what's already

happened they don't lead they define the events so that people can follow but

they don't lead these stories are coming up next on life and times tonight for

Tuesday the 1st of June 1999 [Music]

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[Music]

good evening I'm Pat Morrison and our top story tonight is kids computers and

literacy and what that triumvirate promises California already spends

millions of dollars each year to put computers in every classroom and politicians from President Clinton to

Governor Davis have been touting the benefits of computers as teaching tools in some cases computers are edging out

art and music and physical education programs both in terms of class time in

classroom dollars but before we all climb aboard the high-tech bandwagon

some experts are warning us to wait a minute we need to be sure that computers

will indeed deliver something more than Mouse skills so far they say there is no

hard evidence that computers can improve learning significantly gayi has more

this is a tale of two schools open charter in Los Angeles where you'll find

computers integrated into every classroom and Hyland Hall in Northridge

where you'll find a computer in any classroom at all two schools with

similar goals to teach youngsters to be lifelong learners but their means to

that end is quite different in order for me to do the job that I need to do to

prepare my kids for the 21st century this is it i if I do not use them I'm

not doing what I should be doing in order to prepare them for the world that they're gonna live in BJ Alan Khan is a

fourth and fifth grade teacher at open charter and the members were schools

tech teams open charter is one of the most technologically advanced public

schools in the nation fifteen years ago it was adopted by the Apple computer

company in an educational experiment every classroom is wired to the Internet

and there's a computer to every two students it's sometimes boring when

sitting down and just listening to the teacher when you could be a computer

typing and having fun Alencon these

computers improve teaching practices and student achievement even though it's

never been proven in the research proof she says is for students I truly

believe our kids are more articulate they're better problem solvers they're

better writers because we have the technology here well the faculty here

encourages students to thumb a ride on the information superhighway the

teachers at Highland Hall believe that kids should learn problem-solving skills

the old-fashioned way through hands-on

experience but at Highland Hall

things are different kindergarteners learn to count by jumping rope and spend

the day hand crocheting and creating animals out of beeswax the school

believes in the Waldorf philosophy that children learned best especially in the

early childhood years using a hands-on approach they need to have the

foundation of good motor skills of all

the synapses and neural pathways in

place as a result of having to have having played well who can tell me a

little something what you know about ancient Greece what there is little

technology at Highland Hall because the faculty believes the students become less socialized less motivated and less

imaginative they believe using computers Rob's the student of a cherished

commodity in learning time at the time you had to take to look up a word but

think of all the process that you went through and searching for that word in

the dictionary how many new words you were exposed to what the experience was

you had that luxury of time the computer gives you the answer like that

fifth-grade teacher Lisa cinema says a computer is just a tool and even as we

face the 21st century she believes the old tools are better when you're given a

pencil you're free to express yourself and that is the the the participatory

part of learning that is sometimes missed with computers and children young

children have to learn by doing that's how they learn best two schools of

thought open charter believes teaching students this technology is his obligation to

prepare them for the real world of the 21st century

although Highland Hall questions whether this virtual world is a real world at

all but life in Times tonight I'm gay ye the question becomes then

where the computers are a teaching tool or merely a costly and trendy toy we put

that question in others to Alan Kay who was with Apple computers when he designed the computer system we just saw

at open charter school he believes the computers can and should play a key role

in children's education and with us as well as Richard Clarke he is a professor

of educational psychology and technology at USC where he is also an expert in

technology based education he questions the contribution that computers can make

in the classroom welcome gentlemen both to life and times tonight you seem to

epitomize the two versions of Education that we see there but let me start with

you mr. king we put a lot of money into technology over the years anyway and if

we're so rich in this country why don't we why aren't we smart well we could

learn how to read better when computers help us read better I doubt it I think

that both of the schools you saw our

part right and part wrong because people tend to like to adopt highly focused

almost religious approaches we all think about computers is not to emphasize them

as a material because nobody would say we should have a paper-based curriculum

it doesn't really make sense curriculum is made out of ideas and techniques and

environments for children to explore and the real question about computers is

what is special about it and one of the things that's special about it is the

way you can learn science and math on it that's what I've devoted my interest to

I don't think it should replace any of the other media that we have and that

isn't the same even if the open school to do do you as your concern that you

see it's squeezing out as a teaching tool as a substitute even for a teacher

rather than there's a tool I think it's mostly a symbolic token right now that people are buying it because it's the

easiest way to say we're doing something about education but in fact that the

computer won't have any impact until teachers learn how to teach science and math and when they learn that the

computer will be a natural amplifier just like it's very hard to learn music

unless you have musicians around and then the anno is a natural amplifier and the

music is not in the piano it's in the students mr. Clark you may have some

areas of agreement then with mr. K on this the example that comes to mind reading my own newspaper the LA Times

today a front-page story about this very subject and the reporter used the word discreet there are two ways to spell

discreet he chose the wrong one for his usage but the computer only knew that it

was spelled correctly not that it was misused was that kind of an example of perhaps our will over reliance on

computers to teach us things when in fact we need to program them and learn

ourselves before we can make them our tools well it was interesting that one

of the teachers in the in the piece talked about the fact that computer

spots a misspelled word instantly and of course that's not always the case but it

is the case that her impression was that having computers make decisions and

solve problems intellectually is a good approach and I'd sort of doubt that's

the case why is that well one of the things about the use of computers and

classrooms that's been very obvious in the research on computers for the last 15 years is that children get the idea

that it's easier to learn with a computer than it is with a book for example or with some other medium now

that's wrong of course it's not easier it might be quicker to get certain types

of information but it's not necessarily easier to learn with them but because they believe that the evidence is that

they take a kind of mindless approach to it they literally don't work as hard they don't think it's hard and as a

consequence they don't learn as much how would you come down on the side of that

mr. Kay especially the ideas you're hearing from the kids because it's fun it's all part of this emphasis that

education has to be entertaining that you need a performance in the classroom well as Neil postman pointed out a long

time ago that Sesame Street made it very

difficult for kids to go to school because they could never measure up to there's no big bird up there no big

birds and I think I would agree with most of I'm supposed to be arguing I

know right I would agree with most of this because I think that children just

like the piano the piano will play any note in the pitch and so it's a very bad

instrument to start off with it's better to start off with a violin or singing or

both before you go to the piano because the piano automates a lot of things that

musicians are supposed to pay attention to that doesn't mean we should throw away the piano it

means that we should take the right approach into going into something that instead of being a prosthetic which i

think is what most people are worried about is it's an amplifier so the approach as you say people be seem to be

embracing this uncritically that it that in fact rather than the information age

we live in the data age and people aren't learning how to discern and some

of the numbers that the people on your side mr. Clark talk about is how

information is retained reading is the least effective way to retain information talking watching it looking

at pictures is the most effective but it seems like we're almost going preliterate in our embrace it's too bad

you can't be bad you can't argue the merits of democracy using stained glass

windows there would be a snap one of the big points about reading is that it is

difficult it's hard fun and the very important thing about hard fun is it

leaves you a different person thereafter and so trying to use

something that smooths the way that takes you on a ride I think is the wrong way to look at education what you want

is no gratuitous difficulties but you want good hard fun that leads you into

making you a different kind of person mr. Clark how can people in your position put the brakes on or at least

issues some some reasonable caveats that will be heated by the likes of President

Clinton who seems to have embraced this uncritically well it's a it's a very

very difficult problem because there's a huge political incentive to act as if

we've made some serious contribution to schools because we've hooked them up with the internet and put a few

computers in schools and we wash our hands of it and the evidence is by the

way that while 90% of the schools in the United States as of last year were

hooked up to the Internet only about 18 percent or we're making any significant

use of it in the classroom what I'm sorry go ahead well it's just the case

that there's a huge amount of information out there for people that is available already there's more

information now that the Internet's and classrooms but people are not making any kind of use of it in any central way and

it's not always reliable isn't knowing who gets email knows about about seeing

these matters repeated that article you spoke about in the times this morning

mentioned there were 700 different software packages focused on reading and writing alone that were available to

schools and how do you choose among all that what so how do you separate out the

week from the job I'd like to ask both of you mr. Clark first one of the great concerns we've seen studies of it

recently the people who spend something on the order of more than three hours a day in front of a computer screen become isolated

their social skills tend to Domitian we're talking about adults who've already gone through a socializing

process what does this promise for kids because you can't really play a piano I

do except for a few pieces of music written specifically and you can't sit

on a computer two at a time either what are your concerns on this well actually

I don't I don't think that's as large an issue as some people do as a matter of fact I see some benefits for computer

screens for certain types of children who have learning difficulties it focuses their attention and attention is

usually a big problem with kids particularly in the earlier years mr. Kay yeah I think that when we see

children in the classroom using computers they'd like to double up that's why we only put one for every two

kids we wanted to have plenty around we wanted to have them in the classroom make them socialize no we didn't want to

make them socialize they already are social we wanted to allow them to share

what they were what they were doing with somebody else and also children tend to have different personality temperaments

and so some of them like to be active and some of them like to be thoughtful and it's generally a good idea to let

the kids hook up into groups as part of just simply a sales job that the

computers are the hot item in it's not it's the transistor radio once was is

the refrigerator once was as I said I think it's a sacred you know it's kind of magic it's a magic thing and it's a

way of avoiding responsibility and it shifts attention away from the really critical issues I think in schools we

act like we've made a significant contribution when in fact this instructional problem the teachers have

miss schools confront it is not solved in any way by putting a computer in a classroom or hooking up to the Internet

well here's one which is we've gotta wrap it but would you both agree the best advice is Festina lente make hay

slowly on this there we go make a slowly is good and I would

definitely try and understand what they're actually good for analysis thank

you both Alan Kay and of course Richard Clarke we thank you both for joining us on life and times tonight

up next part two I do Donald Sutherland

then hugh hewitt together again

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Donald Sutherland has made more than 100 films you know him perhaps as the

troubled father in ordinary people or maybe is the mysterious government informant in JFK now he is stepping into

a new venue his first stage appearance in Los Angeles where he plays a Nobel

Prize winning author in the play Enigma Variations his appearance also gave you

here at a chance to talk to Sutherland about his films and some of the characters he's portrayed I'd like to

talk about some of your roles and how you came to get ready for them he played

an art dealer in six degrees of separation opposite Stockard Channing

and you hid kind of perfect pitch of a mixture of arrogance and yet informed

knowledge and aesthetic sensibility how'd you prepare to do that one I I was

driving from my house in Quebec in the winter to go see fred skep see because

I'd agreed to see him even though I was going to turn the movie down and he was

in New York during the six or seven hours of driving the eight hours of

driving I realized who the character was

and and how to do him and I was so

thrifty my god to say no to Fred and I

gosh I embraced him we talked for hours it was just delicious the and the key to

it probably came he's called flan his real name is Flanders and for a Canadian

Flanders Fields you know where the poppies grow is where all of our heroes

are buried and flan is a custard it's a

thing like that and so he had and his birth

this Flanders and something that was heroic and what he had become was flan

and so it was the juxtaposition of those two images in my head that started to

germinate and grow and I don't want to lose our life here I

don't want all the dead to pile up and crush it won't with