Difference between revisions of "Alan Kay Interview for nerdear.la 2020"

Latest revision as of 22:59, 19 November 2021

living organisms can survive in their own waste products

foreign

hello everybody uh

thank you for inviting me to talk

i thought

my bio

is very very brief

pretty much everything i did uh [Music]

came from my research community

and

nobody owes more to it than i do

i'm not going to talk much about the research community

xerox park and

arpa but occasionally i'll refer

to it and

the

talk today

really is in three short

parts because i would like to get

to the question and answer session

i think that would be the most interesting for

for all of us i'm going to try and

get through the talk uh quickly

enough to leave time for questions and answers

and uh

maybe some of the things i say will help

with the questions and answers so

three parts are

about pollution

the kinds of poor thinking that humans do that

gets us in trouble especially

software and other parts

of the world how to find better

than the ones most of us

pick and then we'll get into the question and

answer session

so the first uh

idea about pollution here is this very old slide

that goes all the way back to the 1950s

of a cartoon character named pogo

looking at all the trash and

he says we've met the enemy and he is us

and that's even more true today

because the amount of trash

we have is

much much larger in fact

we can see that

just one of the trash cycles

in the middle of the pacific is almost the size

of the united states

and this is

just the surface that we can see

so they estimate that perhaps 85 percent of

it is below the surface

and whenever i see pictures of this it kind of makes

me think about software

it's just a really

immense amount of it

bigger than most countries

and one of the reasons we have it it doesn't

seem like you have to do any real thinking

to use

trash make trash throw it away

put it somewhere else and

it just gathers up and gathers

and of course computing is that way

most of the software that's made in the world

is not done thinking about the future

in fact most of the costs of doing software

are because of what wasn't

done in the present to

make the 85 percent of the costs

of software in the future much much lower

instead everything is done right now in the present

it's done too quickly

and we wind up with this immense amount of

trash and of course the software doesn't go

in the middle of the pacific ocean

so it's perhaps it's a little bit

more like a slum that's

the size of the united states

perhaps we're living inside

of this

software trash

or slum that's still running

most of it hasn't been turned off

and there are many

go with this i'm just

going to pick one for this

talk so one of

the historical reasons for how we get

into these kinds of troubles is that in

our genes like many

animals many mammals

especially primates our

natural instincts are to tinker with things poke

see what happens if i do this what happens if

i do that and not worry about the consequences

it was hard to get hurt 200

000 years ago and

so trying this and that

's natural it's not something we want to get

rid of if you don't know what else to do it

is kind of fun to tinker

but take something like clay which

resembles a computer in that

you can make the clay

go anywhere you want you can push it around you can tinker

it forever but it's

really hard to tinker it into something great

you just don't get

by it tinkering

into something that's wonderful

like this statue of

uh voltaire

what you get is kind of a mess

to get voltaire you have to

learn a lot of things you have to think about a

develop skills

what you get when you tinker is

omething like this child making a little cup

and when you see something like

this with software

you can complain and say hey

that's not good enough and

these days what people say is well this is

a start when i complained about the world

wide web and especially the web browser

more than 25 years ago i said well

is just a start this is a start we'll we'll make it better

in fact they didn't

many of the things that were wrong then especially

with interaction and

end user creation of things

are as bad today or worse

so what you get when you start off badly

with a tinkering frame of mind is

something that looks like it was tinkered

into existence which is great when a child does it

but you really don't want adult professionals

to be putting a zillion of these out

into the world so if we come back

to tinkering historically we should ask well what came

after tinkering and the answer is

engineering which is

making things using principles

so by trying things out you find ways that

work you remember those ways that work

them up they may even be literally

a cookbook or they're like a cookbook

and then you have a set of things that

are likely to get you faster

where you're trying to go and to get you something that's

better now you still have to make the thing

so making is part

of both tinkering and engineering

but basically in

any real field

that involves making things we want to be able to move from tinkering

engineering so that the goal is engineering

and of course even bad engineering has

principles there are bad ways to cook

things using principles so we also have to ask

are the principles good enough

and after engineering

thousands of years after engineering

the kind of mathematics that we recognize today

was invented about 2500

years ago and it also involves

principles but the principles are about reasoning

and representation

and about 2 000 years later

what we call science today

was invented

one of the most important inventions of all time

because its principles

are about how we negotiate with

the bad stuff inside our heads our brains

ask the deal using

the kinds of belief structures and

memories and everything else we have in here with the phenomena

that we experience in the world

and so it winds up being a negotiation

and it is a deep skill

it's not something built into the human race

it was invented very recently and it's

one of the most powerful things that we've invented

it's also not understood very well

and people who are good these days

work

in a sweet spot

of all four of these things

and if you think of yourself as an engineer

these days you still know mathematics

you still know science you still know

tinkering you think about yourself as a scientist

you still know mathematics you still know engineering

so where you are on this scheme

depends partly on your personality

but basically the people who are really

good use all four of these things

and try to choose which ones are the most

reasonable at time to time so

get into this sweet spot is part of the

idea of being a modern

practitioner in a

stem field now

if we look at computing and ask where is it

it doesn't look so good it's

mostly tinkering still today a little bit of engineering

tiny about a bit of math and almost

no science and

most of the engineering is in the hardware

why is that well it's

get away with murder

with hardware software

people

can make things that are quite dangerous

but in fact because they can be debugged and fixed and patched

and so forth they get away with

much more than any piece of hardware

can so much of the engineering and computing is

in hardware and the vast

majority of software people

think it can be done without learning about engineering without

learning about mathematics and without learning

science and that is

kind of where this mess comes

from now when i started

off programming i started

off like most everybody else

which is not knowing anything

uh important about it i happen to start

a long time ago around 1961

in the air force

but i think my situation back then

was similar to what it is today and that somebody else was

choosing for example

what computers i worked on

they were choosing what operating system in

the case of this machine it didn't have an operating system

which in some ways made life simpler

they chose the programming language

for this machine it was assembly code

development system well it didn't have one

the design or lack of design was represented

in flowcharts back then

done by other people

the legacy system were huge

punch card systems

and the job for us

coders coders were

people who turned flowcharts into machine code

so we were essentially compilers of the higher

level language of flowcharting

and nobody cared

my opinions and i also didn't know

much so that was a situation of course

after after this i went on to

do slightly higher level programming on

supercomputers still mostly in machine code

still with

other people choosing the machines and the choices and so

forth so

now it had happened that i had gone to an engineering

high school and

i had gotten

a undergrad an undergraduate degree

mathematics and another one in molecular

biology so i knew

something about engineering i knew something about mathematics

i knew something about science but it

just wasn't in the computing part of things

which i used as a job to put

hrough college so i was a journeyman

programmer then in 1966

i accidentally wound up in grad school

my theory was spend a year

learning something about computing and avoid

getting a real job and avoid going to grad school

in math or biology and by

accident i round wound up in this

advanced research projects agency

research community that by 1966

had already invented quite a few things they didn't

invented the first parallel computers

real-time computers with displays

and pointing devices they'd invented

the first interactive graphics system

of a modern kind time sharing

uh artificial intelligence

there's already a first little personal computer

the tablet the mouse

hypertext and

they were starting to talk about uh making a

packet switching network which was called

the arpanet they hadn't done it yet

so that was the world that i found myself in

and it was full of people who were

completely unlike the people that i'd worked

with in the air force the people in the arpa community

they all had extensive

of them uh phd's

in engineering of some kind

like electrical engineering or mathematics

or science

and what they were trying to do

take what they knew about these developed fields

these difficult fields that have been developed

over many decades and hundreds of years

and to see what they could use

from this experience in this new

world of computing and

so pretty much everything i had learned

as a journeyman programmer was worthless

the way i went about doing it was worthless

so i wound up having to learn

again but this time

from this point of view of engineering math

and science that this community had

community not only made

its own software made its own programming languages

but it also made its own hardware whenever it needed it

so it's basically full spectrum

computing and in order to get

any kind of degree there you had to learn how to do this full

spectrum computing of hardware and software

and there are some

really famous people who will

be known to you today perhaps the patron saint

of programming don knuth

was there and he his

degree was in mathematics

and turned himself

into what i think we'd all think of

as a great programmer i thought he

was is still hanging

in there doing well and

one of the things that he tried to get people to understand

is this saying premature optimization

is the root of all evil

and it this was a

hard thing for him to say back then

because you could hardly get any computer back

in the 60s to do anything

without optimizing they were just really

slow like they were a million times slower

than your cell phone and

more than a million times smaller

but don pointed out that

most parts of most programs

doesn't matter how fast they run what you

really want to do is get the program right

identify the places that run too slowly and then find

a way of optimizing those

without disturbing the fact that you got the

running and

there are many other sages back then here's

bob barton um my

world's greatest uh computer designer

designer of the furrows b5000

he was a mathematician also and

the things he like to

drum into our heads is that good ideas don't

often scale and of course there

are many other principles from back then

i could make a a

three-day course out of just the principles

that these people used in the early

60s but for this talk i thought i'd just

stick with don's idea that

premature optimization is the root of all evil

and ask well what is it that we should be

thinking of then because we still want to

do something and if we can't optimize

what is it that we should do

well one thing we can do is try designing

that's a new thought to a lot of computer

people they just jump in and start

writing code and think about well we'll design

it later but it doesn't work so well on the other hand

you have to write something because it's

really hard to design a whole system before

trying things out it's too complicated

but you start designing

if we are not going to optimize prematurely

somehow have to separate meanings from optimizations

and this is something we can bring up in the question

and answer thing of what are the different ways of doing

this what does it mean

to separate a meaning from the optimization

for now let's just think of it as a meaning is the

write no matter how slow

that can be debugged

and

allows you to know that you

this meaning captured so like if it's

if your idea in one part of

the thing is you have the idea of sorting

then your little module layer

would be the simplest way to do a sort

it could take forever to sort but it guarantees to be

you something that

you can use for testing

things and also you can use for testing out the optimizations

and once you have the system running no matter how slowly

you can then carefully add in the optimizations

and you can add them in in a way that they

do not pollute the meanings in fact you

can use the meanings to test the optimizations

and by testing

the the optimizations you

want to constantly be able to turn the optimizations off

see whether this is that part of the system

still runs or not turn the optimizations on

see if you get the same results

you can have the meanings and the optimizations running

at the same time until you trust the optimizations

and so forth so there's a whole scheme of things you can do

here and in fact

these kind of things are done in regular engineering

disciplines what i call real engineering

so the designing and separating

from optimizations is called computer-aided design

in regular engineering

these lead to simulation

so you want to simulate

before you commit to doing

the much larger work of packaging

so you have to have a way of simulating what does that mean well we

can talk about that when you

add the optimizations in you better add them in through

the cad tool and then

let the simulator worry about how you

test the optimizations against the meanings

well you have real-time

requirements and your program

might be running too slowly so you just find

a super computer this is what the rpa community

did maybe these days

as you're purchasing super computer time online

from amazon or google

any organization that is targeting

things like this should be paying more

upfront in order to make their actual

program development time uh faster

with

and finally when you get everything going what

real engineering does is it starts thinking about fat

and fab sometimes

requires some additions into

the cat for instance when you're

making a bridge or a

table where you have two beams

connecting each other you might have to put a gusset

in there to help the connection

itself might not be strong enough

so the little things that you have to add in there but you want them to be

minor okay so

that is a typical thing that we find

over and over again in real engineering electrical

cad it's the way everything is done today

nothing electrical

especially no computer chip

is done without completely simulating every aspect

of it before it ever even goes to

masks and silicon

every form of mechanical cad

mechanical engineering

this and the

simulations are particularly critical

because in a jet

are many parts internally

in a jet engine that are actually

their melting point is

temperatures that are in parts of the jet engine

it's really interesting how you make jet engines

to allow these things that would melt

not to melt uh

biocad so here's something that's come along

after computing and

yep the biologists knew enough

to for bioengineering to make

real cad systems with real simulations to allow everything

to be done notice that

all of these things are done using computer

techniques computer displays computer power

to do all of this

so the other engineering fields are using computers to really

help them develop

nanocad

but when you look at

in if you go into most companies and look

to see how people are developing software

you don't find anything like this

what the

what is it whatever

it is it doesn't look like engineering and if you look closely

it's really a

set of facilities for kind of tinkering around

kind of organizing thing but it's mainly aimed at fab

it's much less

aimed at design

almost never almost never do you find

sim as a key component

it's mainly aimed as though

yeah we can do everything right

we're smart enough to be able to write the end

code and have all of the stuff and intertwine

the optimizations and so forth

so this is kind of a yikes

now

what if you don't have the cad

tools most people don't for software

partly because they don't exist but even

the great development systems many people don't develop

using them well what if you don't have those

and what if you don't have a super computer

and the lesson from the past

is you should still do these things

every single one of them you just

o put the optimizations

in more carefully and a little bit

earlier but you still must do the meanings

first so this is a discipline

fact the difference between

gineering and math

and science is the three math

engineering and science they're disciplines

disciplined when you're actually using them

so why don't most

computer people do this well let

me there are lots of reasons but

i'll just pick one is part of it is because our brain

really doesn't want to do all this work

that's why it's a discipline so

we're actually poor thinkers

and we have about 200

known ways that we think poorly

so i'm just going to pick one

way one little part of this

very complicated set

of bad machinery we have between our ears

and i'm going to use

as an analogy

our thoughts or our context as

like a flat surface

it's colored pink here

and our thoughts

will can move around

the surface like an ant crawling on a

table we can pick different directions

if we find an obstacle

we can figure it out how to go around it

so notice everything that we're doing

here is like what we call thinking

but every single thing is

pink and we don't know it's pink because we've never seen

anything but pink so this is a context

that we think of as reality rather

than something that we believe in or something that we've only

been brought up in

okay so

the other thing is uh

when we're seeking goals we tend to cling

on to our goals very very strongly

so if our goal is b

and we will often pick b

in there

so let's try and get to it

we'll start working on it but

in fact the problem space might not actually

flat it just seems flat to the ant

so we start moving towards b and

all of a sudden it starts getting really difficult and then we slide

into a ditch

why are we having so much trouble but we keep on fighting

towards b partly because

in school we've been told

we must solve this problem and

problems are usually given to us by other people

why do we cling so

strongly to these things well

let's go to africa here for a second and

the way

he's going to catch this baboon is he digs a hole in this

termite hill there's the young baboon there

watching it you

put some seeds

nice tasty seeds in the hole here

then he just backs off and

wondering what what's going on here

and that's curious remember baboons are primates

like we are

now looking around well the guy's over there

maybe i should take a look

now when he gets close

he can start smelling the seeds

reach us

in and he's got the seeds

but now we want to let go of the seeds

you can let go

anytime but he won't let go

so the hunter just comes over to him and

ties him up pulls

him out and he's got the baboon

so let me just tell you i won't tell

what what happens after you can find this

uh movie on youtube

and

the baboon does not get hurt

he hunter had a really interesting reason for wanting

to capture the baboon and you'll find that out

but for here uh what we need to understand

is the seeds

this

cognitive uh glitch

which we have baboons have

and many other animals have

it's called loss aversion once we have

something we don't want

to let it go it becomes much more valuable

more valuable to

this baboon than his life because the

hunter might have wanted to kill him and eat his brains

ame thing

with us that goal

becomes more valuable to us

sometimes in our life

and often uh

prevents us from actually solving

problems uh that need to be solved

well if you knew more like

actually a an explorer you know

well when things get tough maybe

we should re just explore around

maybe we don't have to go up over this

hill and then down the valley

and back up in the hill and stuff maybe there's a way

around and this seems like well

we're going we have to go away from the goal to do this

yeah you have to go away from the goal

going to take you a longer distance to get to the goal

but in fact it might take you less time

and less effort to get to the goal

in fact by looking off to the side boy there might

even be a super highway i've colored it blue because that's

my color for science science

is a super highway again you get go off out

of your way get onto this thing you can go three times as fast

and you get to the goal faster

but if you start using science

you might

decide to invent a plane just

fly over the darn thing

but once you start doing science

you've got this even bigger idea is wow there might

be a non-pink world

there might be a whole blue world up there and

only in this blue world is there a goal

c that's the one i really wanted

i didn't even know it

and by the way if you think

about this in terms of your education if you went

to a a really good university

then you probably

went in there with some goals like b a

really good university will change you so much

that it will show you things like see

and your life will never be the same again

so this idea of getting trapped

in a context

and the idea that there are other contexts and

it takes some real effort to get out of

seems real to these other contexts

that might be more powerful this

is the message from this section of the

talk

so how can we get

in the frame of mood to try and find

these bigger goals

these bigger visions

and again this is a huge area

the things uh i was

interested in still am

is the idea of personal computing

back in the 60s we used to say to people well person

is the first word in personal computing so you

better not try and do personal computing if you don't understand

uh persons and of course

people today do not understand

uh people at all and so the

most of the apps that are done are

have terrible user interfaces and

are actually not very good for people

so this is a first lesson but in

fact this is a little bit of a red

because a person all by themselves

is being punished

solitary confinement banishment

we actually exist in a

society of people and

so when we talk about personal computing we have

to talk about humans in a culture

we have to understand what humans

are

that we share with other humans the thing that makes us

human and that will give us great insights

into ourselves because it's

hard to look at ourselves when we're in the pink plane

and just see anything but pink

and in a society

well we've got duties like voting

we have duties to

the next generation whether or not we have children

every

culture has its own world view we need to understand

those and get more powerful ones

every culture

has some form of schooling we need to pay

attention to that there's this idea of richness

richness is

outside the purely

pragmatic we have large

respond to art and love

and friendship and

many other things that are not strictly

pragmatic we need to

care for those and then

we have the thing that most people are worried about way

too much which is livelihood how can i get

a job many people go into programming

because they think they can make money at

it and this is a very bad reason for going into programming

you really shouldn't if you're not going to go into

programming to try and improve the world you

should try and look elsewhere

and these things

here these seven

things are part

of especially in our day and age

are part of a much larger context of what

you might call grand deadly

important issues

i just have 12 here and you can think of more

these are the things that we

worry about also

and these things are global now

there's a large enough population

of the cultures

have enough power to affect the entire world

and are thus affecting all of these things for everyone

pandemic now

that is now worldwide and it gives

people perhaps a bit of a sense although

i think people still are not taking it seriously

and they certainly are not taking the climate seriously

enough because

this world we live on is dying and we

so a child born in 2020

is going to be 80

at the end of the century and you wonder what what is

going to be left for this child

but if you're taking the point of view

that i'm advocating here the other way to look

it is wow 80 years

things could be much better for everybody in the world

80 years from now if we just took all of

this seriously and learned how to think better

and the context is even bigger than the world

it's only been about

100 years or so since we realized that the universe

is vastly larger than our own galaxy

and it's only been a few hundred years

since we realized we lived in a galaxy

we are now aware of most

uh people on the planet in the form

thousands of different cultures all with different beliefs

now all in communication

through our technological structure this is a self-portrait

of the internet but it stands

for all of the technology that we've made

over the last few hundred years

and we ourselves

are a complex system

and our brains are

even more complex systems

so one of the contexts here is this idea

that what we need to be aware of is

ystems that we live in and the systems that we

and these systems are all interconnected

and intertwined so

most of them are invisible

so the four ideas here

first science

is not just about finding out about how

atoms work or how photons

work or how stars work

science the larger

idea of science is the set of heuristics

with to get around with

brains this is the way to

this is why everybody should learn science

systems

is one of the strongest ways we have

to think about complexity and almost

nobody learns systems it's not taught in classrooms

at least in the united states and

over here in the in the uk

and most computer people that i've talked to

outside of special

community most computer

people know very little about systems they think

programming is creating an algorithm

rather than designing

a system and being part of a system so this is

a very weak view then two ideas from einstein

we cannot

solve our problems with the same levels of thinking that we use to

create them this is true of the small in computing

the way people have been going about computing

are just going to make things worse the way we've gone

about health the way we've gone about climate

it's all going to make things worse if we

persist and einstein has this nice

definition of insanity which is

over and over and expecting

that's what we're doing and again you can

if you think small in computing that's what we're doing

computing is hardly different today

except in scale than

it was uh 60 years ago

it's really a shame

the scaling is just making things worse

because almost anything that was done 60 years ago

couldn't handle

scale very well we had to

invent entirely new methods to do things

just even like the ethernet or the internet

to make personal computing and the user interfaces

scale across billions of people

so scaling is another issue that we could be

talking about

so we can wind up here

talking

about the world's greatest hockey player

his name is wayne gretzky

a thousand more goals than anybody

history and he was just a little

guy wasn't big he wasn't tough

took a lot of shots on goals his his

his percentage of

getting goals for shots wasn't very good and some people

complained and he said well you miss 100

of the shots you don't take so

his idea here is you you have to show up and

shoot on goal you can't

worry you have to do all your planning ahead of time you

whether any particular shot is going to go in you have to keep

shooting and

he said well a good hockey player goes

to where the puck is a great one goes to where the

going to be and he didn't mean tracking

he meant getting to a place on

the ice where some teammate

could pass him the puck

where he would have a clean clear shot on the goal

so he would could understand

the patterns of uh all the players

on the ice he could see well if i get over there

somebody can get me a thing and then that will give me a shot

on goal there so this is a completely

different way because most sports especially

sports like like hockey or football

are basically tactical whereas

gretzky was the greatest

player in history because he was strategic

and

he furnishes a good analogy for

an example that i'll end with here from

so the first

idea is uh

you have to

have ways of coming up with ideas

and as i mentioned in the beginning my way was

by being embedded in this incredible community

that was full of rich visions and

interests in helping people so i didn't invent

the idea of personal computing but this

is what i worked on for my thesis

in 1968 and while i was working on it

i

ran into seymour papert who had

been he was a mathematician

like me and he had realized some really important

things about computers

and how children could

learn mathematics by taking advantage of what

could actually do and when i met

him in 1968 what

i saw was something that i understood

and understood beforehand except i didn't

understand it i was in the pink plane

and pappert was in the blue plane

he had seen something that was right there in front of

all of our eyes that combined

what he knew about children and what

he knew about computers and what he knew about mathematics

that provided a

glimpse into a complete revelation

about how

uh children's science and math education

changed and that just

completely blew my mind and so on the

plane flight back to utah i had a blue thought

not a pink thought the

oh this makes

computing really important makes it

more like reading and writing and if it's like reading and writing

children have to do it and pappert is showing us how

and that means children have to have their own

computer and it better be really portable because you don't

confine them inside they need to be able to use it outside

and arpa was working on uh

besides the arpanet working on a wireless version

so it would be connected wireless it would have a flat screen

display and so this cartoon

is what i drew on the plane back to utah

and i started

thinking about it and

community the thought process

went kind of like this well

you have this idea seems good

might be bad but one of the things you should

look around and see if there's are any exponentials that are going

to help in the future it's not possible now

so you can take the idea out 30 years

like to 1998 or 2000

and ask what does this

idea look like 30 some odd years from now

and the answer is oh yeah absolutely going to happen

moore's law will guarantee that we'll be able to

do this but we don't know how people will use it we

don't know what the user interface would be like so then the

critical part is bringing it back uh 10

to 15 years

bring it back to about 10 10 to 15

out in this case it was like 1985

1986 because

when you can get something within

10 to 15 years you can bridge the computing

gap by just paying money

you can build the

function of a computer 10 to 15 years

from now you can build it now

it's going to cost 10 20 times as much

it's going to be 10 or 20 times too large

but you can build it and you can build a bunch

of them so that's what we did we built

a little supercomputer for everybody at park in fact we

built about 2 000 of them and this

allowed us to have

a window to invent the software not

just the the operating

interface but a whole bunch

of the software that would be usable in 10

years or so from then

and this computer is

fast as what you could get from

time sharing interactive time sharing and allowed

us to do two things

there's a whole bunch of stuff that we didn't have to optimize

we could just program the meanings

of user interface ideas hundreds of them

and do a dozen experiments a day

is what we did to invent the

part gui that everybody uses today

the other thing we could do is by optimizing

uh

in the both of these in the way that i mentioned

uh that allowed us to do the

applications of the future uh

in 1973 1974.

this is microsoft word

as it existed in 1974 at xerox park

than 10 years before it appeared

uh commercially but it was quite

possible to do because this machine was actually more powerful

than a mac or an ibm pc

of 1984 85 or so

right so

the simplest way to think about making progress

here is always find ways of computing

in the future and even

if you don't have a super computer there are ways you

in the future because you can make a future

architecture just using

software alone that is going to get you much further along

okay

made it to the question and answer and with that

i'll turn it back to my friends

for the next phase of this

talk thank you very

much

is

in

can you both hear me okay yes

yes good so again

being with us alan and

so as i was saying i am not worthy to take this conversation

so i will just let you talk with

with hernan okay i'm not

worthy either but anyway i'll do it

no no

no thank you thank you very much alan it's it was

amazing the talk i i always enjoyed your talks

uh it's a new way your worth

ways of thinking and new ideas and

and that's great not too many people do that so that's

amazing and i like to start talking about science

because that's something that i know you like and

you talk about it also and uh you know you

always encourage scientific thinking in

in people and i remember uh an example

that you gave in the squeakers dvd like 20 years ago

to quincy jones where you

you showed you know you told us that we science

broaden our vision and in that

way we can you know see beforehand

going to happen a long time from

from now like for example aids and so on

um but in your

that we don't understand science very well

my question is why is that why it's so difficult for

understand science and to think scientifically and

how can we change that well i think

if we look historically

and if we think about science as

what we think of as modern science

we it started really uh

400 or maybe 450

years ago now the greeks had

scientists but they didn't have

science because science is not just

individual scientists but it's also a community

that helps debug fondly held

notions that

people as human beings have

right so zionists are humans as well and

so um they like their own theories

and

one of the one of the hallmarks of the existence

of science is debugging

of ideas and even

ideas that seem to be backed up by experimental

evidence the idea is it's not just

about what one person

thinks is going on or tries to demonstrate

is going on if you go back historically

we can trace back humanity at least several

hundred thousand years we know that

the uh the female line

of humanity goes back 200 000

years and so anybody

the question well how how could it possibly

have taken us 200 000 years to

invent science what was so unobvious

about it and part of the answer is

uh our social

uh cultures

relied on

storytelling so regular

language convolved

with storytelling and using stories as a way

of remembering things and explaining things

and a story is like math

it can be consistent

but it doesn't have to have anything at all to do with the real world

and the other part

of it is if you look at optical illusions

the thing that anybody

who experiences an optical illusion has to

realize is oh i'm not seeing what's out

i

just think i'm seeing what's out there but actually what i'm seeing is

something manifested inside my own head

and that's why i'm seeing some sort of parallel

you know the simplest one is just measuring

holding up your thumbs yeah and i can see

in the in the video that the closer

one is about half the size

but in fact what i'm experiencing is the closer one

is about 80 percent of the size

because our brain knows they're the same size

and so i'm seeing something about a third of

a second late that

is a manifestation of a combination of my

beliefs and understanding with some input

from the outside world putting together into

a kind of a story which is presented

back to me as reality and of course

the though right now we have a perfect

example for the world to see in the

american president that we have who basically

like all humans but

in a very public way is projecting his

beliefs out onto the world

and taking that as his reality

and that's basically what humanity is all about

you see it in computing all the time

also if you just look at the comment section in

any slash dot or

this stuff you see people constantly

projecting their own beliefs

and desires as reality

so it

also happens that this is the 400th anniversary

of one of the major

starting places for science

so in 1620

a guy in england here by the name of francis

bacon wrote a book

uh called the new organization of knowledge

novum organum scientia

science actually meant

knowledge and

the gathering of knowledge it doesn't didn't mean back then what

we mean it today and in this book

he points out that humans are terrible thinkers

in a many many ways

he picks four his four favorite ones

are were terrible because of our genetics

in other words our brains weren't made to think they were

made to do something else

our cultures

weren't made to think they were made to survive

our languages were made for

stories not for representing

ideas very accurately or being able to use

to help think and then our academics

are teaching

uh facilities uh

will often teach ideas that have long

been debunked

we are doomed basically

yeah close close to it so

so what uh what bacon called for is what

he said was we need a new science

and what he said is what what science is what

this new science is a new way to get knowledge

is basically to come up with all the heuristics

and methods we can come up with

to get around with what's wrong with our brains

so this is the big idea about science

and it's not taught in any school in the

united states that i know of no we are not even

close to that i mean yeah big idea about science

is not about uh

no life on mars and

certainly not what you find in a science museum the science

museums in the us and the uk have

hardly any science in them at all they're full of technology

which isn't the same thing at all

but bacon's idea was much larger

so just to make everybody feel better or maybe worse

the

this 400th anniversary of some of the most

important ideas of the last 400

years has not been mentioned once

in any of the british papers

so the the people in the uk are as innocent

of scientific knowledge and history

everybody else in the world and they have no idea

that science actually for real got started

what happened to us in our field

in this software development with you know the the

people that created the development is has

even a bigger problem which is

because uh

when you start off with software

you're starting off with something that probably isn't

going to kill anybody so it's not like

building a big bridge or building an airplane

or something and so you don't really

have to know very much about engineering

write a program you certainly don't have

anything about science to write a program

and you don't have to really know anything about math to write a program

yeah so

uh because simple programs will still do

something it's a little bit

more like this game that was around for a while called

guitar hero yeah where you

could pretend to be a guitar player

and things with things would happen and

a lot of the attraction of programming uh

when the 80s started up and the attraction of

the 8-bit micro computer was

just to touch it

just to feel part of this thing that was happening

the problem is none of the content happened and this is very

common in pop cultures

so pop culture will develop its own music

which is usually much much simpler than

uh develop music it will develop

its own notions of knowledge

and science and you can see it uh

[Music] all over the world

through uh social media

right so this is a universal

publishing system as

viewed by uh

by the majority of people who

haven't had the good fortune to undergo

education in basically the 20th or the

21st century so we have this enormous

culture that

is not very far

really from the middle ages

and we can see that by looking at

most of the world and most of the world's leaders

have reacted to uh the covid

think of it yeah that's right please because

anybody who's actually understood

an eighth grade biology course

these days those

should know exactly what's happened there's nothing that tricky about

it real question is

how infectious is it really but

as far as what a contagious

deadly disease without a cure can

do it should be something that every adult

on the planet

at least in the first and second worlds

should be able to respond to well

now new zealand did a great job yes yeah

they had the right kind of leader the leader was

able to get business people and the politicians

both parties together and get everybody to agree

to this how she did that i'm not

sure but he did

do it and it results in there so if

you prorate new zealand's 25 deaths

with a population of 4 million

you can see that almost every other country

in the world has been needlessly killing off

tens of thousands to hundreds of thousands

of people uh unnecessarily

just because hardly anybody is educated

enough in something that you learn in seventh

or eighth grade biology so because business

life basically

well i don't think they think of it that way you don't

no they just don't see it i

think if you held a gun to the head of a businessman

that said would

you rather live or would you rather

uh stay in business i think they

choose life most of the time most

of the time yeah most of the time there's a famous

there was a famous joke which i

is told better in the u.s okay

which i won't won't tell here but it's quite funny about

that so no i think the big problem

the

lack of imagination

so if you think about what that our brain imagine readily

well we can readily imagine gods

we've never seen them but these are things

that are part of our subconscious

and so and we have experienced them in

dreams so we can imagine things like that

more readily than we can anything that

that is related to science or to think scientifically

yeah if it's if it's really small if it's really

fast if it's really new

and this is where bacon comes in because what

is okay or or

sentence here so we can go okay

next question is yeah yeah so

you know the term artificial intelligence is

used widely and very loosely

these days

but if you think about it what is it what is artificial

intelligence well it's artifice

it means making something you have

so

somehow you're trying to make some sort of a

process that is going

to act intelligent and

impressed with any such process

unless it's more intelligent than a human

and so if we look for something on

the planet that is an artificial

process that's more intelligent than any human

there's only one and that's

science itself

science is a better scientist than any scientist

and science

itself is that process

that makes a group of people much more intelligent

than human genetics human culture

human language and human academics and

so uh

so this should be a simple idea

but partly be

because of the way education goes

uh science has been

relegated to just another belief system

yeah and it is a belief

system but it's a belief system that's backed

up with a lot more than most of the other belief systems

and that can reflect on itself and it

can change based on most mistakes that it makes

and those things that's basically what other belief

systems don't do like religions not really

i think argentina is a catholic

country and one of

the most famous philosophers in history was saint thomas

aquinas and reflecting on

christianity from the standpoint of

greek philosophy was exactly what he did do

so you don't want to you don't want to use that

i think the thing that's

interesting about science is

the particular methods it uses to

try and deal with the noisiness of our human brains it's

basically an error correct detecting and correcting

system if you learn how to do it

and it's basically a skill so

it's not something you know and some people

it's like in music some people have a little more talent than others

but in develop music talent

won't do it you say you have to

practice and develop skills and

the same thing is true for thinking and thinking

is uh in the large

is primarily the province of what's what science

is about so in computing

uh you can hardly see this recently

recently meaning the last 30 or 40

years so the in

the 60s and 70s i started in

like 1961 or 62

the people who are doing what

call computer science today

and what we call software engineering today

started off as real scientists

and started off uh

as real engineers yeah we weren't having undergraduate

degrees that's right there was no

no programming career or

computer science career that's right and so the people who went

into it were interested in it

and just like i did it from another perspective

and that allows them to to see

we as developers don't see

it was a special thing because don't forget there

still ibm yeah back there

and there was i i learned to program in the military

in the air force and the programming there

was just as uninspired

as it is today yeah

what was special uh was that the the

research community that i just luckily

stumbled into in the mid 60s

had started thinking about

what the computer actually meant

and for them it was the next 500 year invention

after the printing press

and many of the things that were going to be important

were how it could go qualitatively beyond

the civilization building inventions

of the past several thousand years like writing

mathematics science

press and so forth and that

o this idea and ibm

did not have this idea the air force did not have

this idea but these people did

and because they were in a good place and because the cold

war was going on there was extra money in

the department of defense uh

one of the people who had this idea got funded

in a big way and he spread

the result is most of the technologies

that we use today which are not invented by ibm

not invented in the air force so

a fortunate thing the processes

that led to those inventions

hardly exist today yeah

see those kind of research

and in current industry at all yeah

the opposite is all the opposite just short term

i want to do this very fast and

yeah the talks i've given

about this in the past the line i put

up on the screen is the goodness of the results

correlates most strongly with the goodness

of the funders so

the rarest thing is a good funder because

if you look at the bell curve at the top of the bell

curve in every generation you're going to get uh

you know super clever people

to draw and so the thing

different than was not us

we just happened to be the lucky people

there the difference was in in the funding

and the funders found us

and uh encouraged us to follow our instincts

and so we've got what we've got that's what we don't

have today yeah that's right so

let me go back just one more question about

science and then we can go to to software and and that

stuff so let's let me let me play a

devil's advocate here okay i

just for a little bit i'm not sure if i can do it right but

anyway uh you know science is great you

it as the most one of the most important achievement of humankind

and uh but science

is what brought us here i mean not science

we humans using science as a

tool is what brought us to the situation where we

waste everywhere with the climate

you know the burning woods and

those kind of things because science

in science in in some way allow us to

think better how to build stuff

but in the other way

not ready to use that powerful

tool so

scientific in thinking can help with

e consequences of things but the actual historical

fact is that

uh business

technology and the industrial revolution

led us to the problem we are what

science did was to make engineering

immense

and the industrial revolution that was starting

yeah was to

add on to this immensely powerful ways

it transformed engineering from something

that was essentially cookbooking

making cookbooks of things that worked

doing things by uh by principles

being able to actually derive uh

physical uh results

and estimations and new

kinds of materials and so forth so science

is a culprit in the sense that it opened

up the possibilities

and the power ratio

or what people can do

but basically when i look at

history what i see is

today what i see

is people uh

just trying to get ahead

in various ways and for instance in

america i don't think most heads of businesses

are really all that aware that they're part of a

country particularly

the multinational ones and certainly

uh if we go back 200

000 years ago we have to look

at something that we can find in all mammals

that

that we have also which is trade-offs

between two powerful forces

that are very different one is cooperation and

one is competition

the

more powerful one unfortunately is competition

in the end

it takes a very very special person

not to try and save themselves

even though we know cooperation

better than competition it is and not

only that uh you

know the reason uh there are social species

of which we are one of them is because cooperation

uh even if you're in a wolf pack

allows the pack to

and you're in

a baboon troop it allows the baboon so

uh cooperation

evolved as

uh all the other traits evolved

underneath that though

is competition and so

you know sociologically

people feel deprived if they are put into

solitary confinement or banished

but as soon as they get back into society

they start competing

and it radiates

out from them to their

you know there's a saying in some of the arab

countries that uh me against my

i against our family

our family against our neighbors

o these

uh tribal uh identity

things radiate outwards

and there are many science fiction stories written about

how to unite the human race will just uh

attack the world with aliens

and all of a sudden then the humanity can see itself

as a bigger tribe that's right and

get together and fight the aliens because yeah

so this this is the this is uh thinking of

completely immature beings who have

no real sense of of what's going on

the big deal in business

is at least in america

is most of the ceos i

know are not

really aware that the reason

they're making money at all is because

they exist within a cooperative structure

that was set up 250

years ago the wealth

that they are tapping into is there

because of the cooperative structure and then they're competing

underneath it so again just just to finish

this off to go back 200 000 years ago

you ask well

if we go back before there's hardly any

culture there's probably never

a time you know because uh primates have cultures

oh so before that even before

go back okay when we have

almost no culture

there's almost no language yeah

but we ask well what uh how did things

uh managed to survive back

then and the answer is genetically we

have drives to reproduce

that are very strong yeah we have

uh drive

to find food and water

so hunting and gathering

is predates any kind

of cooperation if you're

by yourself you're still going to be looking for food and water

yeah and if you think about hunting gathering

it doesn't scale well yeah

right hunting and gathering one of the scalings

of it is to steal things

one of the scalings of it is to

uh strip a

cooperative area dry yeah

so there are many many variations

of this and so one of the

complaints that you could have about school

is that schools do not

teach at least in the united states again

schools do not teach the

children anything important about their own species

these are kind of taboo subjects

what are human beings actually

and we just we aren't very

pretty as a species when you start looking at it from that standpoint

but the good part

of looking at it that way is we get to see

how a

civilization can be

kinder can be more cooperative can

be smarter all of these things

and that is something that uh you need to learn early

because certainly mo i would say most american adults have

idea about this at all from their standpoint

his battle for survival

yeah competition is is being taught in

high school and schools on sports

and all those things instead of instead of cooperation yeah

yeah and rhetoric and governments is we're

not competitive enough what

how could what does that mean on a finite planet

hat's crazy

i don't mean as a metaphor i mean this it is literally

insane yeah well it's what is happening to

yeah and of course the you know scientists

were aware of the climate problems

uh starting in the early 60s

yeah yeah they knew

about it and and the people the business people

tried to not to the idea to spread

out yeah yeah it's not if the business

people really understood it they

uh could actually see

one of the one of the biggest problems with lack of history

is besides

trying to avoid blunders that

done early

we reinvent the flat tire all the time

as you said reinvent the flat tire all the time

but the other thing is we miss opportunities

so for example whenever we've had

a big calamity

in the last 100 or more years

usually

things have not been prepared well enough for it

these glamorous are usually wars not always

but for example the result

of the wars

the aftermath of the wars is

usually prosperity

and the reason is is that it's in war when

there's the extra investing kind of investment

that conservative people don't like to

make or anything

yeah when you're really

in trouble you might give a smart

person you don't understand some money anyway

just right and so the kind

of funding research funding that's done during a war

is unfortunately almost the only

kind of research funding that is uh

that has been done it's when people this is why the

institute of health in the united states

gets more than three times the funding than all of the

national science foundation national

science foundation funds all the other sciences

but the national institute of health why because

people are afraid of dying so they're much

politically they they can

imagine their own death they're afraid of it and there

is a goal that unites them to do that funding

yeah in that case the real

problem with all of the the problems in

recreating arpa and xerox park

uh in recent times

have been that the the mostly billionaires that

have tried it uh they

want to uh direct the research

yeah and i've told any number of them

i said well you shouldn't be doing

this because if you look at why arpa and xerox

park succeeded

the people who directed the research were the people

who were going to do the research the people who chose the problems

were these uh top

researchers that's right and with all due respect

sir you've spent the last 20 years

becoming a billionaire

researcher and so the chances that you can

pick a good research problem are essentially zero

you just want to be a wannabe

you want to be part of this and you're

not satisfied with your billion you want to do this too

but you're incompetent to do it so in

government it's slightly different uh

where the people who are responsible

think they need to be in control because you

know they are responsible yeah that's right but the

made arpa and park different was that the people

who are responsible knew they couldn't be in control

yeah yeah big lighter and bob taylor they

allow you to do whatever you want

for trying to get a culture

going trying to find talent

responsible so taylor

never suggested a single research

project uh at park and

lick lighter stayed with his vision

and people asked well how are you going to do the vision

know but i'm going to fund people

know yeah and they'll take

30 or 40 this is you know

this is more like playing baseball yeah it's hard

to get and it is interesting because bob

taylor was a psychologist wasn't he

and lee glider that's right so they they

knew how people how to get people together

stuff i think there is some of that

both of them happen to be experimental psychologists

okay we're not clinical

yeah yeah and they're

different personalities lick was

just a very nice guy

and okay you're special though he was

one of the inventors of cognitive psychology

so he's special but his personality was

also special taylor

was a uh

much more aggressive

okay he adored

lick glider okay and

uh when he when he

was part of the arpa thing he put a lot of effort

exactly why what

lick lighter did was working so well

and when he became head of head of the

computing research at park he put those principles

he was not acting by instinct

he knew how to do it you were basically yeah

he said uh this is what lick lighter

did by instinct

uh we can we can do this by method

we'll just do do

it this way and park

was a concentration of both

talent and method yeah and it was

amazing wasn't it well

i mean everything that you've done there

yeah well i think the most amazing thing

was uh the bulk of the the work

that's known today was done by you know

25 or 30 people yeah yeah everyone

every part of it and so the concentration

of of abilities there was

large and the concentration of method

the taylor's application

of what he thought was a good way

to do this thing was more powerful than the

than the more ad hoc arpa

management way that he'd learn from

so yeah so

so i always i when i look to

when people ask me questions i said well you know

don't look at us look at look

at the you know the four funders at arpa were

lick lighter ivan sutherland

larry roberts and then taylor

came and did park and so if

you if you want to thank somebody thank them

and you know

uh when we've gotten metals in

the past uh i mean my

line is that well um you know metal

40 years after the fact is okay but

the if you if you want a real

reward think of the reward for being

this work yeah back

then to actually do that's the big deal

and then as much of a reward is the

fact that the funders were giving us gold medals

and a lot more gold than was in the

gold medals they were giving it us

before the fact knowing that most of it was going to turn

into lead so

when you get funding like that and you get to do the

work uh you don't need anything uh

that's it that's it yeah

place in the you know the right environment

you create it was great and we

knew it was great back then uh

and uh our

appreciation for it went up by about a factor of thousands

after it ended

yeah yeah yeah right because i was in

it i had been out

of the regular culture

because i was in it in grad school and then uh for 10

years at xerox park and so i've

been completely isolated from the outside computing

culture for 15 or 16

years and i was quite shocked

when you get out of there yeah

about everything i

can imagine yeah yeah i can imagine so let's

go to that subject now to software

if you don't mind because i know i know

that you can talk for an hour by yourself

i i need to do something you know

you should interrupt me uh by the way

much okay

okay yeah but i'm not sure when to interact

when to know but anyway so let's

let's talk about software and basically software design

uh you know for a long time software design has been

thought as drawing uh

on paper you know and to the design

was to draw basically what you

thought the organization of the system should be

while you were running the system in your head

so you were imagining the system and then

making some draws and you know that was designed

time that was the classic idea as you mentioned

flowcharts in the air force uh you

know that was maybe thought as design but

uh you know we know that that doesn't work

at least what you know the history

tell us that it doesn't work so what

is for you software design because you talk about it in your talk

you talk about cad and those kind of things so what

activities should i

should be done in software design

i think the first thing is

uh i'm sorry i'm sorry to interrupt

you to finish the question because you also

talk about meaning creation of meaning

and how do you relate that to design i think

that the key point is there so yeah

i think the first thing the simple

thing is that

you know the thing i had to get

over in a hurry when i went from

being a journeyman programmer

in the early 60s to accidentally

research community

was that the

the average program

in the early 60s was relatively

easy to do

the computers were small and

so the main problem in programming back

then was more than anything else

get completely

mired in optimization

because you had to optimize you didn't have enough memory you didn't

enough uh cycles

uh so that the tendency

was to convol as people do today

yeah yeah we're still doing that having

that old school in in our heads yeah

so the uh however arpa

was uh

basically the people who

were our mentors first

generation people who were funded by lick lighter

we're basically all systems people

they have many of them

sage air defense

system which was

24 installations of

two computers the size of a

softball a football field

wow there was one floor

of a four-story building the basement of the building

was the power supply for

these computers so we could think of two amazing

and then the third

floor was operations and the top floor

had 150 graphics terminals

that were run by these enormous

vacuum tube computers and

the government built 24 of these block

houses wow all connected

into the radar systems of the of the country

and so that's what these

people were doing in the 50s and

so the monumental scale

of

people who came out of world war ii

and i should mention here for

people who are interested in history if you want to understand

where the mental framework

came from for the

this uh research work in the 60s and 70s it

came out of the mostly out of the radar work

which was jointly between

uk and the uk yeah i'm

primarily at mit but started

off in in britain and there's a great story there's some great

books read about it and

a talk that you had with a

on youtube that where you talk

about that i've got a couple of talks about that i've written

some papers yeah about

it also another monumental

effort was the manhattan

project

so most people aren't who don't the manhattan project they spent

you think about what the us was doing in

world war ii the manhattan project itself

cost more than one percent

of all of the defense funding

war ii so

it involved about 800

000 people it involved

making new cities yeah

because they went wherever they could find cooling water and they

built new cities they brought in school teachers they bought

in doctors they built entire cities they built

plants of acres and acres they didn't know

the best way to refine

get refined uh material

for the for the bombs there are four

known ways and general grove said well let's let's

just go all out on all four of them

and he was the he was the head of this project

and so his history is worthwhile

reading to read about uh

you know something at scale that scale

yeah yeah and the same thing is and i've used

this many times in talks is my background partly

was in uh molecular

biology and you have my favorite book up there

yeah yeah behind you yeah

that's my favorite edition of the book the third is oh

cool the red one the right one not

one that's i think that was the sweet spot

and uh they haven't read it yet

little bit big one of the best

reads ever yeah it's about a thousand pages long

one week one week of reading

you're in uh

so if you come out of that background computers are

tiny tiny tiny little things

and systems

are even the

largest human-built systems are small compared

to what biology pulls

off and of course a lot of the stuff in biology

uh can't be applied to computing

just because of the nature

of the way the materials themselves work and

what things are like at sub microscopic

scales but a lot of it does

and another book that was very influential

was uh christopher alexander's

book which is his phd

thesis called notes on a synthesis of form

yes yeah he repudiated this book

because he got hippified uh

after he went to berkeley went into a different

subsequently wasn't that bad

but this phd thesis book was

really interesting and his

his main example

done after this fascinating

discourse of how you think about complexity

and design and the conflicts

and finding them and

modulizing things and it's just great it's

great today it's just a great book i have it here

somewhere yeah but the end

the the end example of it is

taking the uh

new uh a new

uh village in india from

scratch so it's going to have a

population of a few thousand people and it has

you know a thousand or two constraints

of every different

kind in the thing and how are you going to design this

and this is great because this is not a typical

if you're looking for computing stuff

uh people are start taught programming

examples that are nothing like

or should be nothing like anything they're going to do

for real yeah yeah yeah that's right

much better off dealing with us

a live running system

like say small talk yeah or even

javascript although the it's so ugly in there

but it's live so

system that you can look at

you're much better off learning how to program in

the context of the system because

then you start having to sift into

your mind yeah it's

because you have to to realize

that if you change something you can break it while running

so it you know you can do you can learn a

little bit of driving a car driving around

a field or a parking lot yeah with no cars

on it but really driving is learning how to drive on a

street where you have stop signs and you have that's right

there's all these things you have to worry about and it's very confusing

and the process of learning how to drive

is learning how to create things

in your mind for dealing with all

of the heuristics that have to be done in real time but

so design is again one of these thinking skills

and part of it part

skill is how to hold

in your mind simultaneously

uh things

that conflict or seem to

rather than trying to resolve them too early

and i forget whether i did it in this talk or not but

about you know our ideas made

or like categories where they can't interpenetrate

or

they

hello

i think i lost i think

we lost yeah oh we lost you

the last yeah 30 seconds chris

from my point yeah so the question is are ideas made out

of matter yeah

so one idea can't is basically

antagonistic to another or rd is made out of radiation

so you can shine lots lots of colored

lights at a wall and they superpose

so you can see all of them there they don't interfere

with each other you see interesting combinations

and that's one of the states you have to get into

when you design or when you think about anything

when you're dealing with complexity

the last thing you should try to do is solve a problem

the number one thing you have to do when you're dealing

with complexity is to try and find out what's going on

yeah try to find a way of looking at what's going

yeah the problem the problem finding instead of

the problem solving grinding is and that was the big

one of the big things i got in arpa yeah

they realized the problem finding is that and so

when you get to software

and think about what's the software possible the

pro software process is

trying to deal with

e kinds of things that alexander was dealing with

and the first thing you have to have is some

understanding of what the meaning is

before you start trying to to optimize so

alex so if you look at alexander the i should

have brought brought the book

i have it in my room i don't have it here but yeah

i have it here

oh my

god

this is london so i don't have my real

library here but

i have about a thousand

whoops i have about a thousand books here

just just a few and i

need some yeah so this book

yeah you can't

uh praise it too highly

eah

i read it it's really interesting it opens your

mind yeah so here's his final

design of the village

uh but of the most interesting

things is how careful he is

yeah so appendix

one is the worked example where he

looks at hundreds of constraints

and tries to put them down very carefully

if you look at the requirements and of course

the

real question is are you actually saying anything when

requirement down in a lot in a natural language

so

the belief we had when we started thinking

about this stuff and you bet again

the arpa community

invented computer-aided design

and general motors

was doing also doing a project but

i think was most strongly invented

in sketchpad by ivan sutherland

and then especially by his brother bert

and others at lincoln lab and

mit had a huge numerically

tool project

that was also about computer-aided design so

the idea is you and a lot of the computer graphics that was

then was to try and see whether you could define

shapes using

graphics that a program

could look at the shape and see what a

five-axis milling machine

would have to do to make that shape out of a

piece of metal and so there's a lot of

that and of course the

shape that you want like when you make a flange

yes uh

that flange might not be strong enough

in its yeah

in its simple flangeness

yeah you might have to put a fillet

you know which is extra metal yeah to make it stronger

on the bend part so you can think of that

as something that would be revealed

in simulation so

sketchpad when you designed something in sketchpad

you didn't just you weren't just doing a drawing

you would get something that because you had all the

constraints and the simulation to see what yeah

so and and going back sorry to interrupt

you because we're running out of time and i have a bunch of

questions and i want i want to go to one at least one

questions from the people i don't want to be the only one asking

but um you know you mentioned small talk and

you know that amazing uh system

dan ingalls and adele goldberg

other people and you know working is

with small talk as you said it's like working in a living

system where you are changing it while the

system runs but also one of the main

features of small talk is the immediate feedback and

you you know brett victor he he gave a great talk about

immediate feedback and how important that is to design

stuff to work with staff so how do you see

immediate feedback in in software development how important

you think i think you know

put into my talk

session i just did another talk

okay okay no but you didn't talk about immediate feedback

in your talk yeah but i might have thrown in

uh four stages

yes yes uh the tinkering

engineering followers that's right and i was going

you forgot art why you didn't

put art in there also oh it all

is oh okay okay because what art

art the the greek

word uh art comes from the

latin ours and

the the greek root which goes back even earlier

is techni okay so technology

literally means anything that

humans make anything

okay so what what

happened is in the 19th century uh

painting and sculpture took the term

art oh it used to be called the fine

arts okay okay let's see i

see yeah that's like uh it's like

uh a.i used to mean something different than stuff today

that's right yeah yeah object oriented

used to mean something new today

so people people do this but in fact

in many of the presentations i do i show

these four guys sitting

the larger context around them

is art because it's everything everything

that's that's why artificial

means something special

yeah doesn't mean

something bad perfectly means

something that's made

okay is

intelligence that is made that is made yeah

so yeah so

uh so if you look at those four things

uh and the point i make is

in modern times you want to be

in the sweet spot at the center

ight yeah that combines diagrams

yeah so you want to choose when am i going to tinker

scientist tinker

engineers tinker mathematicians tinker so you have to

tinker that's right yeah you have to be you

have to make things principled it's not

just an engineering but uh like i have also

have a degree in pure math so if you're

going to make a mathematical proof it's at

least as engineered as a bridges

it has to have that integrity

connectiveness in order to be

considered a good proof yeah so

yeah and then science has this extra

important way of being a

between what's inside of our

heads and the kinds of phenomena that we

deal with out there so it's it's a meta

thing that's much more complex than the rest of these

ideas and much more powerful

so so if you try and apply that

map software into it it's usually

way off uh yeah yeah

bit and wearing

uh hardly any math no real

science so if you try

and map that into some modern system

that you might try to make

one of the number one things i think anybody would do

and certainly we did

what we could do back in the 70s

was to say yeah we have to do cad and sin

you have to be able to do computer-aided design

which means we have to be able to continue it's

graphics that we have to continually develop

the thing we have

in mind so we can at least fasten on the meaning

of it so the compute

the cad part is meaning it's semantics

and the

simulation part is because

beyond a few sentences

you shouldn't trust 20

or 30 or 100 requirements yeah

that's right without debugging that's right

that's that's something we do actually in software development

with testing you know there is a

test-driven development i don't know if you heard about it uh

yeah sure but that the problem with that

is that you know

if it were good let's let's

you're doing it well yeah and

in theory you should be able to run

uh you should be able to on a supercomputer you should be able

bring uh the thing to life right if

is covering everything uh the truth

at's right some parts of

it yes so the biggest problem with

want to have tests but the problem

is it loses the larger integrity

of what we need in designing a system

that's right yeah so i think

it's it's not that you don't want to have tests but i think

trying to start with tests is

and again

sometimes i throw in a lump of clay yeah

yeah you did can you i did okay so

it's pretty hard to debug a lump of clay into

a really nice piece of sculpture

yeah yeah and but you got to test

everything continuously right yeah you

have to have a vision of what it is that

you do yes but starting starting with the test

it's like thinking about the meanings first instead

of thinking about the no no it's it's thinking about

criteria the question is is

you know the way to think about the meanings

is to think about the simplest thing that is

like the thing that you want

that gets you no so starting off uh

uh asking

about bathroom facilities

is not going to lead you to a village design

no of course so what you need to think about

is what is the simplest thing that's like a village okay

okay let's see that gives you the system

okay that gives you many of the main things that the system

has to have and then that's not going to be

uh nearly

detailed enough or scaled

enough but it has its it's

a vision of the whole yeah

i think we don't have too much time

i'm sorry to interrupt you again i think we need like six hours

three ten days to talk about everything

uys are organizing you you

know too much alan you know too much it's

difficult it's difficult too

but let me at least ask you one question

from the audience um we have one from maximo

prieto he he admires you because

and he his question

is what can we as simple programmers

not the owners of the business do to

provoke a change in the way we are forced to program

today i think we deserve to program in a better

way yeah so well i think that's the big problem when i

was a professional programmer

you know it was somebody else's machine somebody

else's software somebody else's

problem so i was

you know at the bottom of this

of this machinery on on the other hand

what we did have

lot of this was in machine code

but the nice thing is uh the

machine code systems back then

many of them had really good macro systems

and so anybody

who wanted to survive back then and particularly

with regard to this question

the first thing we would do

a bunch of us who are involved in these projects

is to spend a fair amount of our time

each week often each day

working with each other on macros

that would give us higher level

blocks so basically programming language

dsl basically making

because otherwise you're at

the you're in the wrong place

for uh changing your mind so

about one of the ways of thinking about this thing is

uh and certainly was the way

people approached it and the arpa community really approached

it was let's

admit that human beings are terrible thinkers

that means we are terrible thinkers

what can we do about that well it means that

most of our ideas are going to be mediocre down to bad

let's just put that right

hat's right let's

as a you know that's the yeah let's

face it we still want to make progress so what

can we do well what we need to do is to be able to

fix things so we can change our

mind and what are those things we can do well

starting to happen back when i was a

uh when i was a programmer like one

of the machines i programmed on back then did

not have any index registers

really basic yeah

but you don't need an index register you

can go in and modify addresses that's right

what index registers are is late

binding something

yeah give you both safety and

a way of changing your mind more easily

every time you use a an indirect pointer

you are allowing

allowing

the possibility of sticking something in between

that's right to change that that the

other way would be static but in that way it's dynamic

it later on yeah idea

is virtually nothing that's important

should you know the actual address of

and one other thing and i've

this you know long ago a big

although it wasn't nearly as big as

it as it should have been became a really big

revelation later on

but the the file system

uh on the borough's beach

uh rose 220

in the air force so there were no operating systems

then and they wanted to exchange

tapes with files on them

and the way they hit on doing this

and i don't know who did it but

the idea was that the and these

piles were long because i won't go into the

weirdness of the tape drives back then but

so the front part of this was

bunch of a vec you know

an array yeah of pointers

further on down in the file

into the second part of the file which is a bunch of borrows

220 programs

machine codes yeah those are machine code programs

yeah and then the last part which could be

the size of the rest of the tape were all

the data records and the way

you way you uh read a tape is the tape

always got read into the same place in memory

and the only thing that was standardized was

what the index positions in this

first array actually meant

like so it was basically a

class with messages pointing to

methods basically that yeah yeah and i

real you know and it was great

we we called that data driven programming back then

yeah okay because what what

want to do is write your own code

to understand what you needed to do

was just understand you know if you want to find record

150 and of course there are different

sizes but it didn't matter because the code

there knew what size these guys were it knew

whether where the data is right

so nothing nothing was fixed but it was

dynamically decided by the

code yeah i got there in 1961 and

that was that was already in place

yeah wow yeah so that

was how you did things on the on the

borough's 220 for air

training command records

and but you know if you look at the principle

behind it yes it's like the principle of oop

that's right basically your abstracting and sketchpad

which was done about the same time had

the same idea sketchpad object

was

mostly a bunch of indirect points of the

thing called display and sketchpad

was just a pointer at a

specific position in this data

record for the thing and you just

jumped in direct through it and it would take you to the procedure

that was most well suited for displaying

that particular kind of thing there so

even though in the sketchpad those things

were more like prototypes than that classes is that

i don't know if you look if you read the thesis

yeah everybody should because no he

had uh even something like

inheritance oh really well

no no it was

sketch paper they were not prototypes like

that you cloned because i thought that they were like

cloned to have another one

not like no no okay okay

okay so but anyway once

you know i saw a sketch pad

a few years later in 66 in my first

in grad school along with simula and

it was having seen

this this idea like five or six times

a row because the borough's b5000

had a variant of it also and

in some ways even more sophisticated

and i was just dumb you know it just took me

four five six times to see the thing then finally

error is holy this is really an enormous

good idea it is actually

cosmically important so

let's make it scale now that's what you

did basically yeah so once

course once i saw it was

out to

yes

you know and again again it's

it's pragmatics that hurts

the idea like it's the simplest idea

that there is that if you have a computer

you can do any computation

you can represent any data structure

yeah so it should be a complete

instant

deduction that oh if i want to make

a computing system i should just make virtual computers

because that will allow me

to define anything else and i have

a universal way of doing it and people still don't use

what they call oop today to do that yeah

they just can't see it

here's something about a computer even today when they're

a lot smaller that with

where the pragmatic reality of the

computer you know contrasted

virtually or what it is semantically

yeah yeah so what's once you can

move from pregnant so one of the ways of looking

at is one of the biggest problems in programming in every

era and i don't even know what

decade this is for me i've encountered them

but it's going to be 60 60 years pretty soon

six years next year

six decades wow but in every year

it's the same thing with the same problem

get caught up with the pragmatics

yeah with the immediate with the immediate

instead of the yeah and the number one

optimization and pragmatics

hat on

and we can all do it once you put that

on it is almost impossible to design after

that's right completely incompatible

idea it's very difficult

to change it it's very difficult to say

to understand that you did something wrong it's very difficult to

see that you see that you did something wrong

so yeah so for me uh

you know there are a lot of different ways of using a dynamic system

and it depends on the personality for me

i like to do

when i was i

like to do this idea what's the smallest

village and i

just do that from scratch okay even

in small talk in small talk i wouldn't go in and define a lot

classes or any of that stuff i'd use the

the thing and called workspace which

had grass space yeah in it

and i would use a rebel with

i say like a rebel but with asteroids

because you know in a rebel you're like working

in one line but in a workspace you have the whole thing yeah yeah

you can have many many things in there and

it has its own uh address space

so what i would do is just do

a complete system the smallest thing

that's a village and everything i mean i would do the

loop i do the user interface i do every little thing the

could do trying to get

into my head what the

uh primary focus of the design

because the important thing about what

what oop is at least the oops stuff that we did

is that it's a module

system for us encapsulation

percent yeah yeah

yeah it's not there uh you know

occasionally you might have to fall back and define something like a data

structure but and when you

do that you're actually recording danger

basically it's a module system and the problem with

system is it doesn't tell you what modules

hould come up with right the module

system just gives you a way of protecting one set of things from

another

the whole front part of it is how to think

in terms of modules and what

to do in his his thesis program which

he wrote in fortran was a thing that attempted

to find you the

best set of modules out of a complex

set of constraints still a good idea yeah yeah

but basically and to me that's getting

the meaning of the thing down so to

me meetings dominate and then you have

this interesting thing in

most programming languages today

is there's nothing that because of this

fact that you can use in directions

that you can have a set of meanings

and they might include some tests

but if you think of the uh

yeah suppose it's just something like sorting yeah

and so

the you know the the meaning

for sorting is that the

output is a permutation of the input yeah

that obeys some some relationship

and prolog will even uh

sort for you just on that basis

does it really does it the hard way but

it it gives you the and of course

permutation is not easy thing to describe

it's a trickier kind of

thing but uh but there are 50

known ways to sort oh sort yeah

and they all have different uh

pragmatic ranges

and they have different conditions and so you can imagine

if you're going to do a sorting thing you have something that's

going to protect the meaning

so you can grind let it grind if you want

yeah yeah or it could be a really simple sorting

program that you're sure really does sort

yeah maybe or maybe we combined with tests

because both of these things but you keep that over on

the side and then on the on the right hand side of the page

you write down your 50 sorting routines

and you head them with the conditions

under

which they should be invoked so

they look this is just what we did when we were writing macros

force that's right basically

inputs oh this is an enormous

array so uh

i better not do a bubble sort here

or one of the side conditions

here is uh

this uh this

system has to be uh

easily updatable

so you might want to use a b tree

right you know you don't want to use a hard

array you might be better off going to a b tree

which gives you incremental updating

on the thing and still gives you pretty fast sorting

yeah yeah of course small talk has any number of

these yes different uh kinds of things

and then your module

is which is called sort

is the thing that

done the cad sim part

fab part

is all the all these

routines and the rules should be you should be able

to turn off any and all of the optimizations in any part

of the system and just have the system slow down

that's right but still working if and

that isn't true then you've done

a bad design period

that's simple yeah you're just playing at being an

engineer yeah in computing or you're just

flying at being a programmer even

yeah but going to to the last question

so what what would you tell to a programmer

today to you know

are working what can we

do you know a tiny people can we

do something or not i mean

because as you've mentioned many times complexity

currently in in our you know development software right now

is so complex uh you know working

doing web application is so much

difficult today that doing applications like

20 years ago yeah but so okay it's in

some cases you're just not

going to beat the system yeah

that's that's some cases just that because

the the what's imposed

on you is just too much however

like suppose you are doing web stuff yeah

uh so the

the first thing to notice is that

underneath javascript

is a dynamic

language subset of javascript

can be used as a real

target from uh

other language development yeah yeah

because uh you know there's a

good garbage collector yeah

yeah and quite a bit of it

lacks a couple of reflection

but i i advise people

in javascript to do a thing that

ago which was to

make a preprocessor for javascript

yeah there are

many there are many things like that today yeah it just parses

so you feed javascript to it

and it writes

things in a way that uh what you do

is reflective because it adds

that stuff in there that's right okay okay

so the basic idea is that for almost any

programming language uh

the chances that it's going to really fit what you need is

low and the whole point we do

should be open and with all the source

code available like small talk that helps

that helps a lot yeah i'm sorry sorry sorry

to interrupt you yeah but in

but you know small talk i don't advocate small talk today

because it was the world's greatest thing

really in the 70s but

uh you know what's

mall talk today is how well it compares

with more modern things

but that's because the more modern things are not very good

small talk is not

what i would use if i was going to do

a major project today i would

make i would do what we did you know the other thing about

that community back then is uh it didn't bother

us to do major tools yeah that's right sometimes

our part of our skill set so yes something that

today we're still difficult it's like

we build tools for all the other that's right

for other people but not for us uh

it's that but it's also just people not learning their

field yeah most people

are are happy to get paid for doing x

yeah and uh that's not very professional

so if you're professional you learn

field and our our field

is primarily

there because software

was invented so we didn't

have to put up with a fixed set of

facilities from hardware yeah let's think

about what that means it means that if you have software

you should never have to put up a fixed

set of anything well if you're

just treating uh

you're treating really badly design software

most of the time as though it's some sort of machine

that you can't do anything with

so this indirection principle yeah

so i i suggest just being subversive

you basically

you start working on

a much better way

of doing little parts of things

and at some point you can

uh see if you can attract more

people to doing this you gotta

you know you you do it over lunch with

beer you gradually

but but before you do that

it helps you know the first ones you do

you're not going to want to use as tools

yeah but you have to get started

and if you are going to try and

get around the problem that we have today

then you're going to have to be a lot more skilled

than most programmers are

yeah so i

like i said i was uh

kind of a standard program because i was used

programming to work my way through college so i didn't think of it

as a central thing at all

i was i had a got a math degree in a biology

and i programmed uh

to pay my tuition yeah but when i when

i got into grad school i was in this research

community that was really serious

about big things

and so but they also gave

the grad students a lot of leeway

so i had the time

and the freedom and the

resources there to just

learn a whole bunch of things that if i'd

been more of a professional earlier on i would

idn't know how to do a language i didn't know how to do an operating

system i didn't know how to do a

system even okay doing

programs and uh you know and

but a couple of years later

uh i was more

skilled on this and i understood

process of

because that graduate school

arpa

did not require

people to do individual

theses although usually

ou did but usually

they allow you they gave you the freedom to

do whatever you thought it was it was in a

big context and so the uh

you could work on big problems and

you know write up the first two

a big problem if that was good

they'd give you a phd if you worked on smaller problems

they wanted you to finish something in two years

but they didn't care what

they wanted was two years of world-class

work to get to give out a phd and

you didn't have to write little papers

with your professor's name on them or any of that stuff

okay they didn't want you to write papers

well completely different to what

oday what they want you to do is to write a thesis

right that's the whole reason

grad school it's not to write papers that's right

they want you to do

uh world-class stuff for two

row and write it up and out you go

so i was in grad school for two and a half

years and uh

and i wasn't i was not

nearly the fastest fastest one out

during my year uh in that community

was john warnock who

is famous for doing adobe oh

okay but john was a uh

was a staff program he had a math

degree had a master's in math and he

working had a wife and a kid and he was working as a

staff programmer for the university

and one of the kids

on the grads uh grad school

students went to him and asked them a question and

john saw a big answer to it that happened

to be the first really good way to do continuous

tone 3d graphics

he was the inventor of at that time

of that and so his

he was a grad student less than six months

and his thesis

was actually 16 pages of text

and nine pages of pictures

bingo out he went

and falcon is a multi-millionaire because of adobe

that

uh so that was a

good way of doing things back then because it it

emphasized not what you're doing

school school was basically

something that was a support system for

doing the kinds of things you were going to do after school

that was the way they thought of it and um

so the so the main thing about it is

uh there was a lot of scrambling but there was

not a lot of competition yeah that's right because

these are grants for were for entire

departments and so the professors weren't competing

the professors didn't have to worry about tenure

graduate students weren't competing

was a completely different environment

today but i like i like what you said that uh

should be subversive to

that's what that's what software

is that's right that's right that's science

the big problem with it is bad software is subversive

in really terrible ways

like the like the pollution

that i did and yeah yeah so

if you think about it uh you know in medicine

you can you're allowed to put on a band-aid

without a doctor's uh

degree but not allowed

to do a hard operation without

being certified and nothing like that exists in software

and so forth yeah yeah yeah and and if when you get

out of of college in in medicine you have to

stay like four years in

stuff you have to

learn yeah yeah and so

uh so to go to a serious

subject it's if you know if you know about

the boeing 737 max

yeah yeah yeah so my one of

is a pilot and he used to to pilot

that one so yeah so there you have

an artificial intelligence that knows nothing

doing and

uh it was allowed to be made

right we know there are people on board

it doesn't know anything about flying

because if you're at an altitude of a couple hundred feet

you don't correct for a stall by diving

the plane at the ground that's right every pilot

so so uh

boeing allowed people to

make a technological device

that uh should be

called in artificial intelligence

because it does things that humans do

and uh but it has no

certification the people would

have no certification and so

none of none of that is being

seriously in medicine the number

the first thing in the hippocratic oath

for doctors says above

all do no harm that's right that's right yeah

ave that those kind of things no such thing

no no and the equivalent in engineering

is the bridge must not fall

the plane must not crash

and engineering is now starting to violate that

yeah they let that plane

there's no way you should ever let a plane

right and so

what's happening is this pop culture

amateur and

i should i i like the term amateur because

lover okay

but basically people who are not skilled enough

for the responsibilities they have

are and may not

realize it may not have the faintest

idea they may think that's right safety bug one

bubble sort program they know how to program

and they're being hired right

and writing gazillions

of terrible code much of which is going

to be is almost impossible

to deal with you know so i i say

well this is like a big fire

so in a big fire you have to decide what parts you're

going to just learn let burn out

and other parts you have to isolate by driving

okay through it and so forth and

think about what software is it's exactly the same

idea right you have to

uh the

much of the stuff look

just to retreat back to something that should never have

happen is the way the web and the web

was done i was i was going to ask

question because there is one number one

the number one telling thing to me is

virtually no student i've met in

undergraduate or graduate school at ucla

can tell me what's wrong with the web

in the web browser

that means uh the education

is completely failed yeah because

they only teach you what we use right now and

know what used to be or the principles or the problems

full circle to where we started which is

people are projecting their beliefs on the world

like one of the most pernicious beliefs in computing

is uh simple

darwinism yeah we must

have the best stuff in the

and i used to give lots of talks until i gave up

showing stuff from the past that's infinitely better than the

stuff today no because they think darwinism

just fits

yeah that's right if you have a stupid environment

you're going to wind up with with a

stupid result of evolution and that's what

we've got remember the

really important thing is that

people were probably as clever from

the iq standpoint 100 000 years ago

as they are today yeah right

but uh the

so uh ignorance resembles

you can be clever as hell but if you don't know anything

you might not be clever enough to

around that and liam my grandfather

my grandfather used to say that it is worse an ignorant

person that a dumb person because

is ignorant doesn't know it

and that makes more more harm than

somebody that yeah yeah if you have a smart

hey know it and they don't yeah so

and that's basically i think computing attracts

that kind of personality there

used to be and also it attracts a personality

that tends not to like humans very much

they're more common

well i think it's because uh

you know many people in computing uh

have asperger's i have a bit myself

and it's comforting to deal with machinery

yeah yeah because you don't have to negotiate

with it yeah that's right that's right and

it doesn't have all of these you don't have to be polite

yeah yeah uh you don't have to try and

figure out what the the other person

is thinking about you don't have to do all of these things yeah

yeah and so the thing that saved me

was doing theater whereas

theater is the perfect thing for

a person who is uncomfortable around

people because you have

to because it's theater is basically the

an anthropological way of getting at the anthropology

of humanity

interesting yeah because

understand why theater can work

if you think about what it is and think about

why people can wind up crying

in a completely artificial situation yeah

okay and how to arrange things

happens you understand a lot

if you're still uncomfortable with them

but you understand more about what's going on

and you also have the understanding

needed to design a decent user interface

if you don't have that

uh the user interfaces you'll make are hopeless

yeah and you'll retreat into

world of simple machinery

simple yeah

so it's very possible to for people to

create these bubbles that they

live in that really have nothing to do certainly

if you look at uh the software i've looked

at it's too much software to make a blanket statement

world now but

the software that i've looked at in

mainly in very large companies and in

the government uh indicates

that hardly anybody

who is good at design was ever in the

process because the

objective is to get things done quickly

on time and in budget not

worry about the future and that's where we get all the trash

in the pacific ocean from that's right it's all about

getting the bottle of water to you quickly

cheaply and who cares where the bottle

afterwards that's right that's right that's basically

why i use that analogy to start off

my talk that it's it works very well

uh unfortunately software is much more invisible

than the trash in the pacific ocean

because you can't take pictures

of

you know gazillions of terabytes

of crap

you can get an idea by looking at

a company that should be doing a lot better

uh like google

and ask the question

how is it possible that when you retrieve something

oogle that it's not showing

summaries of those web

just picking random

stuff out of the web pages but it has to index the

web pages to be able to do the retrieval at all

so why aren't they indexing the retr uh the web

pages are about

and putting that in there is meta information

why after all of these year now of course i've asked

my friends at google many times

you guys are doing all of this stuff you

got ai chips to do this and

but you can't do the most elementary thing

in your primary product

to make it any better than it was uh 25

years ago right so

what's the

problem

can you hear me

hello

hello can't hear you

see i was complaining about

the web and it took

revenge

hello hernan

yes can you hear me now yes

yes no i don't know what happened something was wrong

with my well i was i was complaining about the web

and it took revenge yeah

so what i i was asking you what did i say

when you told them that when you asked them that well

you know if i i haven't tried it on

recently but i used to every couple of months i'd send

norvig an email he's a good guy

charge of all this stuff and well

he went to the basically the

the one of the ways of

looking at it and you could ask them why

the things that really did happen

and i think it has to do with

how school once you start valuing

a's in school

pro process

that makes the problems progressively easier

right because people complain

if they don't get an a if they're valuable that's right

the only goal for them is that yeah

then you have to go to easier and easier problems rather than

uh and so i think what

happened is certainly with uh

ai which is actually a hard problem

what they did was to substitute uh

various forms of machine learning

and uh you know perceptron

type stuff which is which

you know one part of our

brain for a fair amount of our brain does a lot

of that but so do so do pigeons

yeah they decided to uh

and the nice for them the nice thing is

cohonen years ago showed that

certain forms of matrix algebra

were isomorphic to simple perceptrons

and all of a sudden that meant so

that wasn't always known okay

was a guy tubo

i don't know yeah well he was the guy who did that

and uh it put a mathematical

basis on it

and it suddenly allowed academics to write

papers with math in them

and since they were supposed to write papers

uh all of a sudden

academic ai shifted

abruptly yeah from just

just machine learning and giving up what

is now called general ai yeah yeah

this is like i have to call object-oriented

programming dynamic object going to program

now

because the term i

away from me and the same thing

as the term that mccarthy made up

which was you know in which machine learning

was a tiny tiny part that's right that's right

take it away from him and

change and change it change the meaning of the world yeah

and so uh a friend of a friend of mine

actually wrote a paper somewhere about this

thing and he called it colonization

when something is

successful everybody wants in on it

and so the they get it by colonizing

the term

in american

uh k-12

uh mathematics yeah

uh they tried to reform it

yeah they got so much pushback that

solved the problem by renaming arithmetic mathematics

that was the solution mathematics in school

have

to realize this is the world that we live in the pop culture that

in yeah that's right it's all about labels

it's about designer jeans

buying a t-shirt with a label

got one right on on you right now there you go

that gives

you the illusion that you understand what i mean

yeah of course gives

other people the illusion

thank you thank you for you know make

me feel like that think

about it do you know what i really meant well i

think so but i'm not sure you know

i'm on email so

i i i know the history i i

'm not sure if i understand exactly

what you meant i've gotten very few emails

about this because people love these

slogans yeah this is why people love

organized religion because

the slogan sounds good yeah

yeah but you have to realize the slogan is this the

can tell that's right that's right

have the context so it's the meaning

yeah and

so well

no the meaning can be what they want it to be

oh yeah that's that's better yeah that's the way there is

a university building in padelbourne germany

yeah that has your phrase in there yeah

building and when i went they asked me to come

celebrate it and i asked the audience whether they

knew what i meant

so i showed them some of the variations

okay okay and it's like like point of

view is worth 80 iq points which is another favorite

one it's on t-shirts and yeah but

i i didn't say whether the sign was plus or minus

good point

and having a weak point

view uh makes you

appear less smart than you actually are

and the same thing with the best way to predict the future is to

invent it doesn't say anything about uh

whether it's a good future

see people inventing the future take a look at washington

and wall street

yeah

so yeah this is what i'm saying these

slogans i started making up see i think in terms

tell by the fact that i talk

and talk and the reason is that i'm basically

a book guy i don't think

in terms of sentences and i don't think in terms of slogans

but i started making up these slogans when

at xerox when when

i realized the executives couldn't deal with threesome with this

slogan and what they needed was

something that sounded good to them

a good way to

make them think what you wanted it's like

when i give a talk uh

the talk is just a commercial

for doing a lot of work

and most people uh try to use the talk as

ource of knowledge and it can't be

look at the world that we live in this world was not made

oral discourse this world was made by

thousands and thousands of these things

yeah these books that's right not bad from what

we're doing right now so if if this

session you know had

help us to understand

a little bit more of what is going on and i think the number

one thing to take from any talk of mine is wow whatever

thinking might not be right that's right

yeah

that's right you have to doubt about

o get you know

so i think make

the mistake of thinking that i know the answers yeah

don't but i am a professional thinker

so what i do know how to do is to

my own thinking yeah so most people

don't do that alan i you know

we have to uh you know the time

is up uh i

you know i would love to be like talking

for more like i don't know 20 hours 40

hours all the time you could give us but uh

this time we have to to end and

i think the last thing the last thing that you said is

how we can you know wrap up uh

thing um i really appreciate

your talk and it was amazing for me a pleasure

to be able to talk to you personally i i wanted

to go to london this year as i told you in the email

to the conference of the history programming languages sadly

it wasn't done because of

the covet but anyway um i think everybody

enjoyed your talk and everything

us today and you told us today

and i hope to see you someday and

for everybody to keep enjoying

what you think london is a great place to live

oh well i haven't i've been out

of my flat here since the last week

february whoa

because yeah yeah

they have one they have one of the worst death rates

uh in the world here in the uk so

and i'm a former biologist so

better be careful we want you to leave more

i am my wife and i

are casual we're really here okay

okay alan thank you very much i i

don't know if you want to finish saying something a small

than enough okay

it's been it's been a tremendous pleasure thank

you thank you very much bye bye

okay thank you alan

[Music]

Difference between revisions of "Alan Kay Interview for nerdear.la 2020"

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@@ Line 6: / Line 6: @@
 |autoresize=true
 }}
+<subtitle id="0:1:14">living organisms can survive in their own waste products</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:7:2">foreign</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:7:15">hello everybody uh</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:7:18"> thank you for inviting me to talk</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:7:21">i thought</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:7:24"> my bio</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:7:27"> is very very brief</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:7:30"> pretty much everything i did uh [Music]</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:7:33"> came from my research community</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:7:36"> and</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:7:39"> nobody owes more to it than i do</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:7:42">i'm not going to talk much about the research community</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:7:45"> xerox park and</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:7:48"> arpa but occasionally i'll refer</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:7:51"> to it and</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:7:54">the</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:7:57"> talk today</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:8:0"> really is in three short</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:8:3"> parts because i would like to get</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:8:6"> to the question and answer session</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:8:9"> i think that would be the most interesting for</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:8:12"> for all of us i'm going to try and</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:8:15"> get through the talk uh quickly</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:8:18"> enough to leave time for questions and answers</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:8:21"> and uh</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:8:24"> maybe some of the things i say will help</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:8:27"> with the questions and answers so</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:8:30"> three parts are</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:8:33"> about pollution</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:8:39">the kinds of poor thinking that humans do that</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:8:42"> gets us in trouble especially</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:8:45">software and other parts</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:8:48"> of the world how to find better</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:8:51">than the ones most of us</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:8:54"> pick and then we'll get into the question and</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:8:57"> answer session</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:9:0"> so the first uh</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:9:3"> idea about pollution here is this very old slide</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:9:6"> that goes all the way back to the 1950s</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:9:9"> of a cartoon character named pogo</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:9:12"> looking at all the trash and</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:9:15"> he says we've met the enemy and he is us</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:9:18"> and that's even more true today</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:9:21"> because the amount of trash</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:9:24"> we have is</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:9:27"> much much larger in fact</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:9:30"> we can see that</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:9:33"> just one of the trash cycles</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:9:36">in the middle of the pacific is almost the size</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:9:39"> of the united states</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:9:42"> and this is</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:9:45"> just the surface that we can see</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:9:48"> so they estimate that perhaps 85 percent of</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:9:51"> it is below the surface</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:9:54"> and whenever i see pictures of this it kind of makes</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:9:57"> me think about software</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:10:0">it's just a really</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:10:3"> immense amount of it</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:10:6"> bigger than most countries</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:10:9"> and one of the reasons we have it it doesn't</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:10:12"> seem like you have to do any real thinking</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:10:15"> to use</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:10:18"> trash make trash throw it away</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:10:21"> put it somewhere else and</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:10:24"> it just gathers up and gathers</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:10:30">and of course computing is that way</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:10:33"> most of the software that's made in the world</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:10:36">is not done thinking about the future</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:10:39"> in fact most of the costs of doing software</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:10:42"> are because of what wasn't</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:10:45"> done in the present to</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:10:48"> make the 85 percent of the costs</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:10:51"> of software in the future much much lower</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:10:54"> instead everything is done right now in the present</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:10:57"> it's done too quickly</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:11:0"> and we wind up with this immense amount of</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:11:3"> trash and of course the software doesn't go</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:11:6"> in the middle of the pacific ocean</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:11:9"> so it's perhaps it's a little bit</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:11:12"> more like a slum that's</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:11:15"> the size of the united states</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:11:18">perhaps we're living inside</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:11:21"> of this</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:11:24"> software trash</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:11:27"> or slum that's still running</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:11:30"> most of it hasn't been turned off</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:11:33"> and there are many</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:11:36">go with this i'm just</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:11:39"> going to pick one for this</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:11:42"> talk so one of</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:11:45"> the historical reasons for how we get</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:11:48"> into these kinds of troubles is that in</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:11:51"> our genes like many</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:11:54"> animals many mammals</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:11:57"> especially primates our</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:12:0"> natural instincts are to tinker with things poke</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:12:3">see what happens if i do this what happens if</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:12:6"> i do that and not worry about the consequences</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:12:9"> it was hard to get hurt 200</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:12:12"> 000 years ago and</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:12:15"> so trying this and that</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:12:18">'s natural it's not something we want to get</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:12:21"> rid of if you don't know what else to do it</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:12:24"> is kind of fun to tinker</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:12:27"> but take something like clay which</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:12:30"> resembles a computer in that</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:12:33"> you can make the clay</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:12:36"> go anywhere you want you can push it around you can tinker</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:12:39">it forever but it's</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:12:42"> really hard to tinker it into something great</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:12:45">you just don't get</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:12:48"> by it tinkering</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:12:51"> into something that's wonderful</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:12:54"> like this statue of</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:12:57"> uh voltaire</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:13:0"> what you get is kind of a mess</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:13:3"> to get voltaire you have to</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:13:6"> learn a lot of things you have to think about a</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:13:9">develop skills</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:13:12"> what you get when you tinker is</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:13:15">omething like this child making a little cup</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:13:18"> and when you see something like</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:13:21"> this with software</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:13:24">you can complain and say hey</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:13:27">that's not good enough and</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:13:30"> these days what people say is well this is</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:13:33"> a start when i complained about the world</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:13:36"> wide web and especially the web browser</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:13:39"> more than 25 years ago i said well</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:13:42">is just a start this is a start we'll we'll make it better</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:13:45"> in fact they didn't</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:13:48"> many of the things that were wrong then especially</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:13:51"> with interaction and</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:13:54"> end user creation of things</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:13:57"> are as bad today or worse</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:14:0"> so what you get when you start off badly</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:14:3">with a tinkering frame of mind is</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:14:6"> something that looks like it was tinkered</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:14:9"> into existence which is great when a child does it</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:14:12">but you really don't want adult professionals</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:14:15"> to be putting a zillion of these out</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:14:18">into the world so if we come back</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:14:21"> to tinkering historically we should ask well what came</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:14:24"> after tinkering and the answer is</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:14:27"> engineering which is</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:14:30"> making things using principles</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:14:33"> so by trying things out you find ways that</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:14:36"> work you remember those ways that work</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:14:39">them up they may even be literally</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:14:42"> a cookbook or they're like a cookbook</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:14:45"> and then you have a set of things that</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:14:48">are likely to get you faster</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:14:51"> where you're trying to go and to get you something that's</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:14:54"> better now you still have to make the thing</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:14:57"> so making is part</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:15:0"> of both tinkering and engineering</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:15:3">but basically in</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:15:6"> any real field</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:15:9">that involves making things we want to be able to move from tinkering</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:15:12">engineering so that the goal is engineering</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:15:18">and of course even bad engineering has</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:15:21">principles there are bad ways to cook</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:15:24"> things using principles so we also have to ask</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:15:27"> are the principles good enough</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:15:30">and after engineering</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:15:33"> thousands of years after engineering</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:15:36">the kind of mathematics that we recognize today</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:15:40"> was invented about 2500</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:15:42"> years ago and it also involves</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:15:45"> principles but the principles are about reasoning</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:15:48"> and representation</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:15:51"> and about 2 000 years later</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:15:54"> what we call science today</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:15:57"> was invented</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:16:0"> one of the most important inventions of all time</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:16:3"> because its principles</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:16:6"> are about how we negotiate with</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:16:9"> the bad stuff inside our heads our brains</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:16:12"> ask the deal using</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:16:15"> the kinds of belief structures and</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:16:18"> memories and everything else we have in here with the phenomena</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:16:21"> that we experience in the world</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:16:24"> and so it winds up being a negotiation</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:16:27"> and it is a deep skill</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:16:30"> it's not something built into the human race</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:16:33"> it was invented very recently and it's</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:16:36"> one of the most powerful things that we've invented</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:16:39"> it's also not understood very well</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:16:42"> and people who are good these days</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:16:45">work</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:16:48"> in a sweet spot</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:16:51"> of all four of these things</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:16:54">and if you think of yourself as an engineer</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:16:57"> these days you still know mathematics</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:17:0"> you still know science you still know</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:17:3"> tinkering you think about yourself as a scientist</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:17:6">you still know mathematics you still know engineering</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:17:9"> so where you are on this scheme</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:17:12"> depends partly on your personality</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:17:15"> but basically the people who are really</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:17:18">good use all four of these things</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:17:21"> and try to choose which ones are the most</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:17:24"> reasonable at time to time so</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:17:27">get into this sweet spot is part of the</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:17:30"> idea of being a modern</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:17:33"> practitioner in a</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:17:36"> stem field now</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:17:39"> if we look at computing and ask where is it</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:17:42"> it doesn't look so good it's</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:17:45"> mostly tinkering still today a little bit of engineering</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:17:48"> tiny about a bit of math and almost</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:17:51"> no science and</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:17:54"> most of the engineering is in the hardware</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:17:57"> why is that well it's</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:18:0">get away with murder</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:18:3"> with hardware software</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:18:6"> people</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:18:9"> can make things that are quite dangerous</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:18:12">but in fact because they can be debugged and fixed and patched</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:18:15"> and so forth they get away with</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:18:18"> much more than any piece of hardware</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:18:21"> can so much of the engineering and computing is</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:18:24"> in hardware and the vast</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:18:27"> majority of software people</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:18:30">think it can be done without learning about engineering without</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:18:33"> learning about mathematics and without learning</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:18:36">science and that is</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:18:39"> kind of where this mess comes</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:18:42"> from now when i started</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:18:45"> off programming i started</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:18:48"> off like most everybody else</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:18:51"> which is not knowing anything</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:18:54"> uh important about it i happen to start</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:18:57">a long time ago around 1961</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:19:0">in the air force</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:19:3"> but i think my situation back then</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:19:6"> was similar to what it is today and that somebody else was</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:19:9">choosing for example</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:19:12"> what computers i worked on</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:19:15">they were choosing what operating system in</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:19:18"> the case of this machine it didn't have an operating system</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:19:21"> which in some ways made life simpler</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:19:24"> they chose the programming language</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:19:27"> for this machine it was assembly code</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:19:30"> development system well it didn't have one</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:19:36">the design or lack of design was represented</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:19:39"> in flowcharts back then</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:19:42"> done by other people</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:19:45">the legacy system were huge</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:19:48"> punch card systems</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:19:51"> and the job for us</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:19:54"> coders coders were</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:19:57"> people who turned flowcharts into machine code</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:20:0"> so we were essentially compilers of the higher</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:20:3"> level language of flowcharting</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:20:6">and nobody cared</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:20:9"> my opinions and i also didn't know</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:20:12"> much so that was a situation of course</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:20:15"> after after this i went on to</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:20:18"> do slightly higher level programming on</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:20:21">supercomputers still mostly in machine code</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:20:24"> still with</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:20:27"> other people choosing the machines and the choices and so</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:20:30"> forth so</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:20:33"> now it had happened that i had gone to an engineering</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:20:36"> high school and</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:20:39"> i had gotten</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:20:42"> a undergrad an undergraduate degree</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:20:45">mathematics and another one in molecular</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:20:48"> biology so i knew</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:20:51"> something about engineering i knew something about mathematics</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:20:54"> i knew something about science but it</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:20:57"> just wasn't in the computing part of things</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:21:0"> which i used as a job to put</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:21:3">hrough college so i was a journeyman</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:21:6"> programmer then in 1966</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:21:9"> i accidentally wound up in grad school</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:21:12"> my theory was spend a year</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:21:15"> learning something about computing and avoid</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:21:18">getting a real job and avoid going to grad school</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:21:21"> in math or biology and by</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:21:24"> accident i round wound up in this</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:21:27"> advanced research projects agency</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:21:30">research community that by 1966</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:21:33"> had already invented quite a few things they didn't</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:21:36"> invented the first parallel computers</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:21:39">real-time computers with displays</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:21:42"> and pointing devices they'd invented</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:21:45"> the first interactive graphics system</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:21:48"> of a modern kind time sharing</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:21:51"> uh artificial intelligence</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:21:54"> there's already a first little personal computer</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:21:57"> the tablet the mouse</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:22:0"> hypertext and</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:22:3"> they were starting to talk about uh making a</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:22:6"> packet switching network which was called</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:22:9"> the arpanet they hadn't done it yet</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:22:12">so that was the world that i found myself in</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:22:15"> and it was full of people who were</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:22:18">completely unlike the people that i'd worked</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:22:21"> with in the air force the people in the arpa community</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:22:24"> they all had extensive</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:22:27">of them uh phd's</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:22:30"> in engineering of some kind</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:22:33"> like electrical engineering or mathematics</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:22:36"> or science</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:22:39"> and what they were trying to do</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:22:42">take what they knew about these developed fields</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:22:45"> these difficult fields that have been developed</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:22:48"> over many decades and hundreds of years</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:22:51"> and to see what they could use</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:22:54"> from this experience in this new</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:22:57"> world of computing and</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:23:0"> so pretty much everything i had learned</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:23:3"> as a journeyman programmer was worthless</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:23:6"> the way i went about doing it was worthless</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:23:9"> so i wound up having to learn</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:23:12">again but this time</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:23:15"> from this point of view of engineering math</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:23:18"> and science that this community had</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:23:21">community not only made</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:23:24"> its own software made its own programming languages</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:23:27">but it also made its own hardware whenever it needed it</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:23:30"> so it's basically full spectrum</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:23:33">computing and in order to get</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:23:36"> any kind of degree there you had to learn how to do this full</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:23:39"> spectrum computing of hardware and software</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:23:42">and there are some</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:23:45"> really famous people who will</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:23:48"> be known to you today perhaps the patron saint</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:23:51"> of programming don knuth</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:23:54"> was there and he his</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:23:57"> degree was in mathematics</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:24:0">and turned himself</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:24:3"> into what i think we'd all think of</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:24:6"> as a great programmer i thought he</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:24:9"> was is still hanging</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:24:12"> in there doing well and</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:24:15"> one of the things that he tried to get people to understand</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:24:18"> is this saying premature optimization</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:24:21"> is the root of all evil</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:24:24">and it this was a</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:24:27"> hard thing for him to say back then</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:24:30">because you could hardly get any computer back</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:24:33"> in the 60s to do anything</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:24:36"> without optimizing they were just really</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:24:39"> slow like they were a million times slower</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:24:42"> than your cell phone and</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:24:45"> more than a million times smaller</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:24:48"> but don pointed out that</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:24:51"> most parts of most programs</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:24:54"> doesn't matter how fast they run what you</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:24:57"> really want to do is get the program right</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:25:0"> identify the places that run too slowly and then find</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:25:3"> a way of optimizing those</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:25:6"> without disturbing the fact that you got the</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:25:9">running and</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:25:12"> there are many other sages back then here's</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:25:15"> bob barton um my</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:25:18">world's greatest uh computer designer</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:25:21"> designer of the furrows b5000</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:25:24"> he was a mathematician also and</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:25:27">the things he like to</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:25:30"> drum into our heads is that good ideas don't</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:25:33"> often scale and of course there</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:25:36"> are many other principles from back then</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:25:39"> i could make a a</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:25:42"> three-day course out of just the principles</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:25:45"> that these people used in the early</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:25:48"> 60s but for this talk i thought i'd just</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:25:51"> stick with don's idea that</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:25:54"> premature optimization is the root of all evil</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:25:57"> and ask well what is it that we should be</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:26:0">thinking of then because we still want to</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:26:3"> do something and if we can't optimize</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:26:6"> what is it that we should do</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:26:9">well one thing we can do is try designing</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:26:12"> that's a new thought to a lot of computer</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:26:15"> people they just jump in and start</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:26:18"> writing code and think about well we'll design</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:26:21"> it later but it doesn't work so well on the other hand</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:26:24"> you have to write something because it's</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:26:27">really hard to design a whole system before</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:26:30"> trying things out it's too complicated</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:26:33"> but you start designing</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:26:36"> if we are not going to optimize prematurely</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:26:39">somehow have to separate meanings from optimizations</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:26:42"> and this is something we can bring up in the question</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:26:45"> and answer thing of what are the different ways of doing</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:26:48">this what does it mean</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:26:51"> to separate a meaning from the optimization</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:26:54">for now let's just think of it as a meaning is the</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:26:57">write no matter how slow</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:27:0"> that can be debugged</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:27:3">and</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:27:6"> allows you to know that you</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:27:9">this meaning captured so like if it's</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:27:12"> if your idea in one part of</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:27:15"> the thing is you have the idea of sorting</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:27:18"> then your little module layer</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:27:21"> would be the simplest way to do a sort</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:27:24">it could take forever to sort but it guarantees to be</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:27:27">you something that</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:27:30"> you can use for testing</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:27:33"> things and also you can use for testing out the optimizations</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:27:39">and once you have the system running no matter how slowly</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:27:42"> you can then carefully add in the optimizations</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:27:45"> and you can add them in in a way that they</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:27:48"> do not pollute the meanings in fact you</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:27:51"> can use the meanings to test the optimizations</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:27:54">and by testing</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:27:57"> the the optimizations you</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:28:0"> want to constantly be able to turn the optimizations off</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:28:3"> see whether this is that part of the system</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:28:6"> still runs or not turn the optimizations on</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:28:9"> see if you get the same results</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:28:12"> you can have the meanings and the optimizations running</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:28:15"> at the same time until you trust the optimizations</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:28:18"> and so forth so there's a whole scheme of things you can do</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:28:21"> here and in fact</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:28:24"> these kind of things are done in regular engineering</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:28:27"> disciplines what i call real engineering</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:28:30"> so the designing and separating</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:28:33">from optimizations is called computer-aided design</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:28:36"> in regular engineering</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:28:39"> these lead to simulation</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:28:42"> so you want to simulate</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:28:45">before you commit to doing</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:28:48"> the much larger work of packaging</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:28:51">so you have to have a way of simulating what does that mean well we</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:28:54"> can talk about that when you</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:28:57"> add the optimizations in you better add them in through</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:29:0"> the cad tool and then</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:29:3"> let the simulator worry about how you</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:29:6">test the optimizations against the meanings</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:29:9">well you have real-time</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:29:12"> requirements and your program</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:29:15"> might be running too slowly so you just find</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:29:18"> a super computer this is what the rpa community</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:29:21"> did maybe these days</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:29:24"> as you're purchasing super computer time online</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:29:27"> from amazon or google</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:29:30"> any organization that is targeting</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:29:33"> things like this should be paying more</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:29:36"> upfront in order to make their actual</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:29:39">program development time uh faster</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:29:42">with</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:29:48">and finally when you get everything going what</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:29:51"> real engineering does is it starts thinking about fat</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:29:54"> and fab sometimes</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:29:57"> requires some additions into</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:30:0">the cat for instance when you're</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:30:3"> making a bridge or a</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:30:6"> table where you have two beams</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:30:9"> connecting each other you might have to put a gusset</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:30:12"> in there to help the connection</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:30:15"> itself might not be strong enough</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:30:18">so the little things that you have to add in there but you want them to be</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:30:21">minor okay so</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:30:24"> that is a typical thing that we find</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:30:27"> over and over again in real engineering electrical</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:30:30"> cad it's the way everything is done today</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:30:33">nothing electrical</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:30:36"> especially no computer chip</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:30:39"> is done without completely simulating every aspect</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:30:42"> of it before it ever even goes to</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:30:45"> masks and silicon</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:30:48"> every form of mechanical cad</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:30:51"> mechanical engineering</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:30:54">this and the</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:30:57"> simulations are particularly critical</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:31:0"> because in a jet</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:31:3">are many parts internally</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:31:6"> in a jet engine that are actually</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:31:9">their melting point is</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:31:12">temperatures that are in parts of the jet engine</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:31:15"> it's really interesting how you make jet engines</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:31:18"> to allow these things that would melt</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:31:21"> not to melt uh</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:31:24"> biocad so here's something that's come along</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:31:27"> after computing and</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:31:30"> yep the biologists knew enough</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:31:33"> to for bioengineering to make</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:31:36">real cad systems with real simulations to allow everything</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:31:39"> to be done notice that</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:31:42"> all of these things are done using computer</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:31:45"> techniques computer displays computer power</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:31:48"> to do all of this</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:31:51"> so the other engineering fields are using computers to really</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:31:54"> help them develop</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:31:57">nanocad</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:32:0">but when you look at</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:32:3"> in if you go into most companies and look</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:32:6"> to see how people are developing software</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:32:9"> you don't find anything like this</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:32:12">what the</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:32:15"> what is it whatever</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:32:18"> it is it doesn't look like engineering and if you look closely</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:32:21"> it's really a</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:32:24"> set of facilities for kind of tinkering around</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:32:27"> kind of organizing thing but it's mainly aimed at fab</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:32:30">it's much less</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:32:33"> aimed at design</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:32:36">almost never almost never do you find</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:32:39"> sim as a key component</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:32:42"> it's mainly aimed as though</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:32:45"> yeah we can do everything right</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:32:48"> we're smart enough to be able to write the end</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:32:51"> code and have all of the stuff and intertwine</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:32:54"> the optimizations and so forth</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:32:57"> so this is kind of a yikes</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:33:0">now</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:33:3"> what if you don't have the cad</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:33:6"> tools most people don't for software</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:33:9"> partly because they don't exist but even</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:33:12"> the great development systems many people don't develop</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:33:15"> using them well what if you don't have those</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:33:18"> and what if you don't have a super computer</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:33:21"> and the lesson from the past</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:33:24"> is you should still do these things</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:33:27"> every single one of them you just</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:33:30">o put the optimizations</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:33:33"> in more carefully and a little bit</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:33:36"> earlier but you still must do the meanings</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:33:39"> first so this is a discipline</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:33:42">fact the difference between</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:33:45">gineering and math</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:33:49"> and science is the three math</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:33:51">engineering and science they're disciplines</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:33:54">disciplined when you're actually using them</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:33:57"> so why don't most</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:34:0"> computer people do this well let</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:34:3"> me there are lots of reasons but</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:34:6">i'll just pick one is part of it is because our brain</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:34:9"> really doesn't want to do all this work</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:34:12"> that's why it's a discipline so</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:34:15"> we're actually poor thinkers</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:34:18"> and we have about 200</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:34:21"> known ways that we think poorly</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:34:24"> so i'm just going to pick one</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:34:27"> way one little part of this</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:34:30"> very complicated set</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:34:33"> of bad machinery we have between our ears</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:34:36">and i'm going to use</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:34:39"> as an analogy</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:34:42">our thoughts or our context as</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:34:45">like a flat surface</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:34:48"> it's colored pink here</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:34:51">and our thoughts</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:34:54"> will can move around</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:34:57"> the surface like an ant crawling on a</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:35:0"> table we can pick different directions</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:35:3"> if we find an obstacle</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:35:6"> we can figure it out how to go around it</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:35:9">so notice everything that we're doing</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:35:12">here is like what we call thinking</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:35:15"> but every single thing is</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:35:18">pink and we don't know it's pink because we've never seen</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:35:21"> anything but pink so this is a context</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:35:24"> that we think of as reality rather</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:35:27"> than something that we believe in or something that we've only</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:35:30"> been brought up in</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:35:33">okay so</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:35:36"> the other thing is uh</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:35:39"> when we're seeking goals we tend to cling</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:35:42"> on to our goals very very strongly</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:35:45"> so if our goal is b</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:35:48"> and we will often pick b</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:35:51"> in there</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:35:54"> so let's try and get to it</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:35:57">we'll start working on it but</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:36:0"> in fact the problem space might not actually</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:36:3">flat it just seems flat to the ant</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:36:6"> so we start moving towards b and</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:36:9"> all of a sudden it starts getting really difficult and then we slide</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:36:12"> into a ditch</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:36:15"> why are we having so much trouble but we keep on fighting</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:36:18"> towards b partly because</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:36:21"> in school we've been told</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:36:24"> we must solve this problem and</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:36:27">problems are usually given to us by other people</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:36:30"> why do we cling so</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:36:33"> strongly to these things well</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:36:36"> let's go to africa here for a second and</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:36:45"> the way</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:36:48"> he's going to catch this baboon is he digs a hole in this</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:36:51"> termite hill there's the young baboon there</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:36:54"> watching it you</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:36:57"> put some seeds</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:37:0">nice tasty seeds in the hole here</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:37:3"> then he just backs off and</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:37:6">wondering what what's going on here</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:37:9"> and that's curious remember baboons are primates</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:37:12"> like we are</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:37:15">now looking around well the guy's over there</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:37:21">maybe i should take a look</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:37:24">now when he gets close</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:37:27"> he can start smelling the seeds</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:37:30">reach us</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:37:33"> in and he's got the seeds</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:37:36">but now we want to let go of the seeds</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:37:39">you can let go</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:37:42"> anytime but he won't let go</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:37:45"> so the hunter just comes over to him and</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:37:48"> ties him up pulls</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:37:51"> him out and he's got the baboon</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:37:57">so let me just tell you i won't tell</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:38:0">what what happens after you can find this</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:38:3"> uh movie on youtube</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:38:6"> and</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:38:9"> the baboon does not get hurt</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:38:12">he hunter had a really interesting reason for wanting</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:38:15"> to capture the baboon and you'll find that out</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:38:18">but for here uh what we need to understand</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:38:21"> is the seeds</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:38:24">this</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:38:27"> cognitive uh glitch</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:38:30"> which we have baboons have</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:38:33"> and many other animals have</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:38:36"> it's called loss aversion once we have</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:38:39"> something we don't want</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:38:42"> to let it go it becomes much more valuable</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:38:45"> more valuable to</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:38:48"> this baboon than his life because the</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:38:51"> hunter might have wanted to kill him and eat his brains</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:38:54">ame thing</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:38:57"> with us that goal</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:39:0"> becomes more valuable to us</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:39:3"> sometimes in our life</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:39:6">and often uh</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:39:9"> prevents us from actually solving</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:39:12"> problems uh that need to be solved</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:39:18">well if you knew more like</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:39:21">actually a an explorer you know</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:39:24"> well when things get tough maybe</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:39:27"> we should re just explore around</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:39:30"> maybe we don't have to go up over this</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:39:33">hill and then down the valley</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:39:36"> and back up in the hill and stuff maybe there's a way</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:39:39"> around and this seems like well</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:39:42"> we're going we have to go away from the goal to do this</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:39:45"> yeah you have to go away from the goal</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:39:48">going to take you a longer distance to get to the goal</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:39:51"> but in fact it might take you less time</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:39:54">and less effort to get to the goal</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:39:57"> in fact by looking off to the side boy there might</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:40:0">even be a super highway i've colored it blue because that's</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:40:3"> my color for science science</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:40:6"> is a super highway again you get go off out</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:40:9"> of your way get onto this thing you can go three times as fast</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:40:12"> and you get to the goal faster</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:40:15"> but if you start using science</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:40:18">you might</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:40:21"> decide to invent a plane just</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:40:24"> fly over the darn thing</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:40:27"> but once you start doing science</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:40:30"> you've got this even bigger idea is wow there might</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:40:33"> be a non-pink world</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:40:36"> there might be a whole blue world up there and</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:40:39"> only in this blue world is there a goal</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:40:42">c that's the one i really wanted</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:40:45"> i didn't even know it</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:40:48">and by the way if you think</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:40:51"> about this in terms of your education if you went</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:40:54"> to a a really good university</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:40:57"> then you probably</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:41:0"> went in there with some goals like b a</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:41:4"> really good university will change you so much</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:41:6"> that it will show you things like see</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:41:9">and your life will never be the same again</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:41:12"> so this idea of getting trapped</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:41:15"> in a context</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:41:18">and the idea that there are other contexts and</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:41:21"> it takes some real effort to get out of</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:41:24">seems real to these other contexts</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:41:27"> that might be more powerful this</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:41:30"> is the message from this section of the</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:41:33"> talk</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:41:36"> so how can we get</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:41:39"> in the frame of mood to try and find</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:41:42"> these bigger goals</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:41:45"> these bigger visions</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:41:48">and again this is a huge area</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:41:51">the things uh i was</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:41:54"> interested in still am</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:41:57"> is the idea of personal computing</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:42:0">back in the 60s we used to say to people well person</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:42:3">is the first word in personal computing so you</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:42:6"> better not try and do personal computing if you don't understand</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:42:9"> uh persons and of course</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:42:12">people today do not understand</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:42:15"> uh people at all and so the</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:42:18"> most of the apps that are done are</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:42:21"> have terrible user interfaces and</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:42:24"> are actually not very good for people</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:42:27"> so this is a first lesson but in</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:42:30"> fact this is a little bit of a red</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:42:33">because a person all by themselves</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:42:36"> is being punished</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:42:39">solitary confinement banishment</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:42:42"> we actually exist in a</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:42:45"> society of people and</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:42:48"> so when we talk about personal computing we have</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:42:51"> to talk about humans in a culture</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:42:54"> we have to understand what humans</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:42:57"> are</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:43:0">that we share with other humans the thing that makes us</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:43:3"> human and that will give us great insights</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:43:6"> into ourselves because it's</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:43:9"> hard to look at ourselves when we're in the pink plane</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:43:12"> and just see anything but pink</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:43:15">and in a society</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:43:18"> well we've got duties like voting</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:43:21"> we have duties to</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:43:24"> the next generation whether or not we have children</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:43:27"> every</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:43:30"> culture has its own world view we need to understand</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:43:33"> those and get more powerful ones</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:43:36">every culture</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:43:39"> has some form of schooling we need to pay</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:43:42"> attention to that there's this idea of richness</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:43:45"> richness is</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:43:48"> outside the purely</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:43:51"> pragmatic we have large</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:43:54">respond to art and love</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:43:57"> and friendship and</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:44:0"> many other things that are not strictly</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:44:3"> pragmatic we need to</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:44:6"> care for those and then</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:44:9"> we have the thing that most people are worried about way</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:44:12"> too much which is livelihood how can i get</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:44:15"> a job many people go into programming</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:44:18"> because they think they can make money at</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:44:21"> it and this is a very bad reason for going into programming</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:44:24"> you really shouldn't if you're not going to go into</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:44:27"> programming to try and improve the world you</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:44:30"> should try and look elsewhere</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:44:33"> and these things</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:44:36"> here these seven</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:44:39"> things are part</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:44:42"> of especially in our day and age</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:44:45"> are part of a much larger context of what</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:44:48"> you might call grand deadly</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:44:51"> important issues</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:44:54"> i just have 12 here and you can think of more</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:44:57"> these are the things that we</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:45:0">worry about also</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:45:3"> and these things are global now</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:45:6"> there's a large enough population</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:45:9">of the cultures</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:45:12"> have enough power to affect the entire world</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:45:15"> and are thus affecting all of these things for everyone</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:45:18">pandemic now</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:45:21"> that is now worldwide and it gives</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:45:24"> people perhaps a bit of a sense although</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:45:27"> i think people still are not taking it seriously</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:45:30">and they certainly are not taking the climate seriously</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:45:33"> enough because</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:45:36"> this world we live on is dying and we</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:45:42">so a child born in 2020</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:45:45"> is going to be 80</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:45:48"> at the end of the century and you wonder what what is</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:45:51"> going to be left for this child</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:45:54"> but if you're taking the point of view</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:45:57">that i'm advocating here the other way to look</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:46:0">it is wow 80 years</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:46:3"> things could be much better for everybody in the world</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:46:6"> 80 years from now if we just took all of</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:46:9">this seriously and learned how to think better</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:46:12"> and the context is even bigger than the world</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:46:15"> it's only been about</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:46:18"> 100 years or so since we realized that the universe</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:46:21"> is vastly larger than our own galaxy</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:46:24"> and it's only been a few hundred years</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:46:27"> since we realized we lived in a galaxy</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:46:33">we are now aware of most</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:46:36"> uh people on the planet in the form</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:46:39">thousands of different cultures all with different beliefs</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:46:42"> now all in communication</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:46:45"> through our technological structure this is a self-portrait</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:46:48"> of the internet but it stands</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:46:51"> for all of the technology that we've made</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:46:54"> over the last few hundred years</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:46:57"> and we ourselves</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:47:0"> are a complex system</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:47:3"> and our brains are</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:47:6"> even more complex systems</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:47:9"> so one of the contexts here is this idea</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:47:12"> that what we need to be aware of is</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:47:15">ystems that we live in and the systems that we</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:47:21">and these systems are all interconnected</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:47:24">and intertwined so</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:47:27"> most of them are invisible</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:47:30"> so the four ideas here</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:47:33">first science</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:47:36"> is not just about finding out about how</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:47:39"> atoms work or how photons</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:47:42"> work or how stars work</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:47:45"> science the larger</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:47:48"> idea of science is the set of heuristics</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:47:51">with to get around with</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:47:54">brains this is the way to</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:47:57">this is why everybody should learn science</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:48:0">systems</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:48:3"> is one of the strongest ways we have</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:48:6"> to think about complexity and almost</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:48:9"> nobody learns systems it's not taught in classrooms</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:48:12"> at least in the united states and</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:48:15"> over here in the in the uk</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:48:18"> and most computer people that i've talked to</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:48:21"> outside of special</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:48:24">community most computer</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:48:27"> people know very little about systems they think</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:48:30"> programming is creating an algorithm</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:48:33"> rather than designing</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:48:36"> a system and being part of a system so this is</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:48:39"> a very weak view then two ideas from einstein</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:48:42">we cannot</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:48:45"> solve our problems with the same levels of thinking that we use to</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:48:48">create them this is true of the small in computing</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:48:51">the way people have been going about computing</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:48:54">are just going to make things worse the way we've gone</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:48:57"> about health the way we've gone about climate</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:49:0"> it's all going to make things worse if we</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:49:3"> persist and einstein has this nice</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:49:6"> definition of insanity which is</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:49:9">over and over and expecting</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:49:15">that's what we're doing and again you can</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:49:18">if you think small in computing that's what we're doing</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:49:21"> computing is hardly different today</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:49:24"> except in scale than</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:49:27"> it was uh 60 years ago</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:49:30"> it's really a shame</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:49:33"> the scaling is just making things worse</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:49:36">because almost anything that was done 60 years ago</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:49:39"> couldn't handle</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:49:42"> scale very well we had to</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:49:45"> invent entirely new methods to do things</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:49:48">just even like the ethernet or the internet</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:49:51"> to make personal computing and the user interfaces</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:49:54"> scale across billions of people</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:49:57"> so scaling is another issue that we could be</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:50:0"> talking about</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:50:3">so we can wind up here</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:50:6">talking</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:50:9"> about the world's greatest hockey player</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:50:12"> his name is wayne gretzky</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:50:15">a thousand more goals than anybody</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:50:18">history and he was just a little</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:50:21"> guy wasn't big he wasn't tough</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:50:27">took a lot of shots on goals his his</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:50:30"> his percentage of</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:50:33"> getting goals for shots wasn't very good and some people</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:50:36">complained and he said well you miss 100</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:50:39"> of the shots you don't take so</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:50:42"> his idea here is you you have to show up and</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:50:45"> shoot on goal you can't</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:50:48">worry you have to do all your planning ahead of time you</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:50:51">whether any particular shot is going to go in you have to keep</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:50:54"> shooting and</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:50:57"> he said well a good hockey player goes</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:51:0"> to where the puck is a great one goes to where the</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:51:3">going to be and he didn't mean tracking</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:51:9">he meant getting to a place on</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:51:12"> the ice where some teammate</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:51:15"> could pass him the puck</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:51:18"> where he would have a clean clear shot on the goal</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:51:21"> so he would could understand</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:51:24"> the patterns of uh all the players</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:51:27"> on the ice he could see well if i get over there</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:51:30">somebody can get me a thing and then that will give me a shot</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:51:33"> on goal there so this is a completely</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:51:36"> different way because most sports especially</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:51:39"> sports like like hockey or football</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:51:42"> are basically tactical whereas</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:51:45"> gretzky was the greatest</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:51:48"> player in history because he was strategic</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:51:51"> and</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:51:54"> he furnishes a good analogy for</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:51:57"> an example that i'll end with here from</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:52:3">so the first</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:52:6"> idea is uh</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:52:9">you have to</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:52:12"> have ways of coming up with ideas</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:52:15">and as i mentioned in the beginning my way was</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:52:18"> by being embedded in this incredible community</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:52:21"> that was full of rich visions and</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:52:24"> interests in helping people so i didn't invent</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:52:27"> the idea of personal computing but this</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:52:30"> is what i worked on for my thesis</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:52:33"> in 1968 and while i was working on it</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:52:36">i</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:52:39"> ran into seymour papert who had</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:52:42"> been he was a mathematician</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:52:45"> like me and he had realized some really important</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:52:48"> things about computers</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:52:51">and how children could</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:52:54"> learn mathematics by taking advantage of what</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:52:57">could actually do and when i met</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:53:0"> him in 1968 what</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:53:3"> i saw was something that i understood</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:53:6"> and understood beforehand except i didn't</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:53:9"> understand it i was in the pink plane</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:53:12"> and pappert was in the blue plane</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:53:15">he had seen something that was right there in front of</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:53:18"> all of our eyes that combined</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:53:21"> what he knew about children and what</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:53:24"> he knew about computers and what he knew about mathematics</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:53:27"> that provided a</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:53:30"> glimpse into a complete revelation</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:53:33"> about how</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:53:36"> uh children's science and math education</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:53:39">changed and that just</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:53:42"> completely blew my mind and so on the</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:53:45"> plane flight back to utah i had a blue thought</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:53:48"> not a pink thought the</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:53:51">oh this makes</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:53:54"> computing really important makes it</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:53:57"> more like reading and writing and if it's like reading and writing</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:54:0">children have to do it and pappert is showing us how</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:54:3"> and that means children have to have their own</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:54:6">computer and it better be really portable because you don't</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:54:9">confine them inside they need to be able to use it outside</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:54:12"> and arpa was working on uh</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:54:15">besides the arpanet working on a wireless version</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:54:18"> so it would be connected wireless it would have a flat screen</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:54:21"> display and so this cartoon</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:54:24"> is what i drew on the plane back to utah</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:54:27"> and i started</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:54:30"> thinking about it and</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:54:33">community the thought process</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:54:36"> went kind of like this well</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:54:39"> you have this idea seems good</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:54:42"> might be bad but one of the things you should</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:54:45"> look around and see if there's are any exponentials that are going</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:54:48"> to help in the future it's not possible now</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:54:51"> so you can take the idea out 30 years</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:54:54"> like to 1998 or 2000</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:54:57"> and ask what does this</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:55:0"> idea look like 30 some odd years from now</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:55:3"> and the answer is oh yeah absolutely going to happen</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:55:6"> moore's law will guarantee that we'll be able to</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:55:9"> do this but we don't know how people will use it we</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:55:12"> don't know what the user interface would be like so then the</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:55:15"> critical part is bringing it back uh 10</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:55:18"> to 15 years</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:55:21"> bring it back to about 10 10 to 15</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:55:24">out in this case it was like 1985</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:55:27"> 1986 because</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:55:30"> when you can get something within</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:55:33"> 10 to 15 years you can bridge the computing</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:55:36"> gap by just paying money</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:55:39"> you can build the</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:55:42"> function of a computer 10 to 15 years</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:55:45"> from now you can build it now</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:55:48"> it's going to cost 10 20 times as much</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:55:51">it's going to be 10 or 20 times too large</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:55:54"> but you can build it and you can build a bunch</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:55:57"> of them so that's what we did we built</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:56:0">a little supercomputer for everybody at park in fact we</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:56:3"> built about 2 000 of them and this</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:56:6"> allowed us to have</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:56:9"> a window to invent the software not</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:56:12">just the the operating</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:56:15">interface but a whole bunch</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:56:18"> of the software that would be usable in 10</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:56:21"> years or so from then</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:56:24"> and this computer is</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:56:27">fast as what you could get from</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:56:30"> time sharing interactive time sharing and allowed</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:56:33"> us to do two things</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:56:36">there's a whole bunch of stuff that we didn't have to optimize</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:56:39"> we could just program the meanings</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:56:42"> of user interface ideas hundreds of them</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:56:45"> and do a dozen experiments a day</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:56:48">is what we did to invent the</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:56:51"> part gui that everybody uses today</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:56:54"> the other thing we could do is by optimizing</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:56:57"> uh</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:57:0"> in the both of these in the way that i mentioned</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:57:3"> uh that allowed us to do the</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:57:6">applications of the future uh</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:57:9"> in 1973 1974.</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:57:12"> this is microsoft word</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:57:15"> as it existed in 1974 at xerox park</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:57:18">than 10 years before it appeared</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:57:21"> uh commercially but it was quite</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:57:24"> possible to do because this machine was actually more powerful</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:57:27"> than a mac or an ibm pc</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:57:30"> of 1984 85 or so</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:57:33"> right so</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:57:36"> the simplest way to think about making progress</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:57:39"> here is always find ways of computing</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:57:42"> in the future and even</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:57:45"> if you don't have a super computer there are ways you</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:57:48">in the future because you can make a future</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:57:51">architecture just using</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:57:54"> software alone that is going to get you much further along</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:57:57"> okay</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:58:0"> made it to the question and answer and with that</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:58:3"> i'll turn it back to my friends</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:58:6">for the next phase of this</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:58:9"> talk thank you very</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:58:12"></subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:58:15"></subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:58:18"></subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:58:21"> much</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:58:48">is</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="0:59:3">in</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:0:18">can you both hear me okay yes</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:0:21"> yes good so again</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:0:24">being with us alan and</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:0:27"> so as i was saying i am not worthy to take this conversation</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:0:30"> so i will just let you talk with</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:0:33"> with hernan okay i'm not</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:0:36"> worthy either but anyway i'll do it</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:0:39">no no</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:0:42"> no thank you thank you very much alan it's it was</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:0:45"> amazing the talk i i always enjoyed your talks</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:0:48"> uh it's a new way your worth</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:0:51">ways of thinking and new ideas and</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:0:54"> and that's great not too many people do that so that's</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:0:57"> amazing and i like to start talking about science</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:1:0"> because that's something that i know you like and</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:1:3"> you talk about it also and uh you know you</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:1:6"> always encourage scientific thinking in</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:1:9"> in people and i remember uh an example</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:1:12"> that you gave in the squeakers dvd like 20 years ago</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:1:15"> to quincy jones where you</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:1:18"> you showed you know you told us that we science</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:1:21">broaden our vision and in that</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:1:24"> way we can you know see beforehand</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:1:27">going to happen a long time from</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:1:30"> from now like for example aids and so on</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:1:33"> um but in your</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:1:36">that we don't understand science very well</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:1:39">my question is why is that why it's so difficult for</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:1:42">understand science and to think scientifically and</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:1:45"> how can we change that well i think</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:1:48"> if we look historically</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:1:51">and if we think about science as</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:1:54"> what we think of as modern science</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:1:57"> we it started really uh</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:2:0"> 400 or maybe 450</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:2:3"> years ago now the greeks had</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:2:6"> scientists but they didn't have</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:2:9"> science because science is not just</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:2:12">individual scientists but it's also a community</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:2:15"> that helps debug fondly held</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:2:18"> notions that</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:2:21"> people as human beings have</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:2:24"> right so zionists are humans as well and</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:2:27">so um they like their own theories</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:2:30"> and</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:2:33"> one of the one of the hallmarks of the existence</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:2:36"> of science is debugging</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:2:39"> of ideas and even</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:2:42"> ideas that seem to be backed up by experimental</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:2:45"> evidence the idea is it's not just</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:2:48"> about what one person</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:2:51"> thinks is going on or tries to demonstrate</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:2:54"> is going on if you go back historically</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:2:57"> we can trace back humanity at least several</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:3:0"> hundred thousand years we know that</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:3:3"> the uh the female line</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:3:6"> of humanity goes back 200 000</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:3:9"> years and so anybody</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:3:12">the question well how how could it possibly</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:3:15"> have taken us 200 000 years to</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:3:18"> invent science what was so unobvious</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:3:21"> about it and part of the answer is</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:3:24"> uh our social</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:3:27"> uh cultures</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:3:30"> relied on</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:3:33"> storytelling so regular</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:3:36"> language convolved</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:3:39"> with storytelling and using stories as a way</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:3:42"> of remembering things and explaining things</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:3:45"> and a story is like math</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:3:48"> it can be consistent</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:3:51">but it doesn't have to have anything at all to do with the real world</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:3:54"> and the other part</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:3:57"> of it is if you look at optical illusions</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:4:0"> the thing that anybody</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:4:3"> who experiences an optical illusion has to</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:4:6"> realize is oh i'm not seeing what's out</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:4:9">i</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:4:12"> just think i'm seeing what's out there but actually what i'm seeing is</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:4:15"> something manifested inside my own head</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:4:18"> and that's why i'm seeing some sort of parallel</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:4:21"> you know the simplest one is just measuring</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:4:24"> holding up your thumbs yeah and i can see</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:4:27"> in the in the video that the closer</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:4:30"> one is about half the size</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:4:33"> but in fact what i'm experiencing is the closer one</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:4:36"> is about 80 percent of the size</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:4:39">because our brain knows they're the same size</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:4:42"> and so i'm seeing something about a third of</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:4:45"> a second late that</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:4:48"> is a manifestation of a combination of my</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:4:51"> beliefs and understanding with some input</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:4:54"> from the outside world putting together into</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:4:57"> a kind of a story which is presented</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:5:0"> back to me as reality and of course</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:5:3"> the though right now we have a perfect</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:5:6"> example for the world to see in the</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:5:9"> american president that we have who basically</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:5:12"> like all humans but</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:5:15"> in a very public way is projecting his</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:5:18"> beliefs out onto the world</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:5:21"> and taking that as his reality</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:5:24"> and that's basically what humanity is all about</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:5:27"> you see it in computing all the time</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:5:30">also if you just look at the comment section in</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:5:33"> any slash dot or</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:5:36">this stuff you see people constantly</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:5:39"> projecting their own beliefs</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:5:42"> and desires as reality</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:5:45"> so it</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:5:48"> also happens that this is the 400th anniversary</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:5:51"> of one of the major</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:5:54"> starting places for science</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:5:57"> so in 1620</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:6:0"> a guy in england here by the name of francis</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:6:3"> bacon wrote a book</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:6:6"> uh called the new organization of knowledge</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:6:9"> novum organum scientia</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:6:12"> science actually meant</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:6:15"> knowledge and</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:6:18"> the gathering of knowledge it doesn't didn't mean back then what</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:6:21"> we mean it today and in this book</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:6:24"> he points out that humans are terrible thinkers</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:6:27"> in a many many ways</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:6:30"> he picks four his four favorite ones</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:6:33"> are were terrible because of our genetics</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:6:36">in other words our brains weren't made to think they were</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:6:39"> made to do something else</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:6:42"> our cultures</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:6:45"> weren't made to think they were made to survive</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:6:48"> our languages were made for</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:6:51">stories not for representing</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:6:54"> ideas very accurately or being able to use</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:6:57">to help think and then our academics</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:7:0"> are teaching</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:7:3"> uh facilities uh</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:7:6"> will often teach ideas that have long</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:7:9"> been debunked</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:7:12">we are doomed basically</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:7:15"> yeah close close to it so</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:7:18"> so what uh what bacon called for is what</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:7:21"> he said was we need a new science</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:7:24"> and what he said is what what science is what</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:7:27"> this new science is a new way to get knowledge</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:7:30"> is basically to come up with all the heuristics</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:7:33"> and methods we can come up with</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:7:36"> to get around with what's wrong with our brains</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:7:39"> so this is the big idea about science</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:7:42"> and it's not taught in any school in the</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:7:45">united states that i know of no we are not even</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:7:48"> close to that i mean yeah big idea about science</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:7:51"> is not about uh</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:7:54"> no life on mars and</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:7:57"> certainly not what you find in a science museum the science</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:8:0"> museums in the us and the uk have</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:8:3"> hardly any science in them at all they're full of technology</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:8:6"> which isn't the same thing at all</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:8:9"> but bacon's idea was much larger</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:8:12">so just to make everybody feel better or maybe worse</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:8:15">the</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:8:18"> this 400th anniversary of some of the most</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:8:21"> important ideas of the last 400</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:8:24"> years has not been mentioned once</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:8:27"> in any of the british papers</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:8:30"> so the the people in the uk are as innocent</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:8:33"> of scientific knowledge and history</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:8:36">everybody else in the world and they have no idea</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:8:39"> that science actually for real got started</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:8:42">what happened to us in our field</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:8:45"> in this software development with you know the the</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:8:48"> people that created the development is has</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:8:51"> even a bigger problem which is</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:8:54"> because uh</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:8:57"> when you start off with software</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:9:0">you're starting off with something that probably isn't</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:9:3"> going to kill anybody so it's not like</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:9:6"> building a big bridge or building an airplane</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:9:9"> or something and so you don't really</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:9:12">have to know very much about engineering</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:9:15">write a program you certainly don't have</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:9:18">anything about science to write a program</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:9:21">and you don't have to really know anything about math to write a program</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:9:24"> yeah so</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:9:27"> uh because simple programs will still do</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:9:30"> something it's a little bit</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:9:33"> more like this game that was around for a while called</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:9:36"> guitar hero yeah where you</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:9:39"> could pretend to be a guitar player</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:9:42"> and things with things would happen and</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:9:45"> a lot of the attraction of programming uh</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:9:48"> when the 80s started up and the attraction of</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:9:51"> the 8-bit micro computer was</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:9:54"> just to touch it</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:9:57"> just to feel part of this thing that was happening</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:10:0">the problem is none of the content happened and this is very</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:10:3"> common in pop cultures</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:10:6"> so pop culture will develop its own music</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:10:9"> which is usually much much simpler than</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:10:12"> uh develop music it will develop</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:10:15">its own notions of knowledge</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:10:18"> and science and you can see it uh</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:10:21">[Music] all over the world</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:10:24"> through uh social media</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:10:27"> right so this is a universal</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:10:30"> publishing system as</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:10:33"> viewed by uh</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:10:36"> by the majority of people who</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:10:39"> haven't had the good fortune to undergo</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:10:42"> education in basically the 20th or the</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:10:45"> 21st century so we have this enormous</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:10:48"> culture that</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:10:51"> is not very far</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:10:54"> really from the middle ages</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:10:57">and we can see that by looking at</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:11:0">most of the world and most of the world's leaders</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:11:3"> have reacted to uh the covid</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:11:6"> think of it yeah that's right please because</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:11:9"> anybody who's actually understood</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:11:12"> an eighth grade biology course</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:11:15"> these days those</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:11:18">should know exactly what's happened there's nothing that tricky about</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:11:21"> it real question is</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:11:24"> how infectious is it really but</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:11:27"> as far as what a contagious</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:11:30"> deadly disease without a cure can</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:11:33"> do it should be something that every adult</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:11:36">on the planet</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:11:39"> at least in the first and second worlds</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:11:42"> should be able to respond to well</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:11:45"> now new zealand did a great job yes yeah</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:11:48">they had the right kind of leader the leader was</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:11:51"> able to get business people and the politicians</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:11:54">both parties together and get everybody to agree</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:11:57"> to this how she did that i'm not</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:12:0"> sure but he did</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:12:3"> do it and it results in there so if</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:12:6"> you prorate new zealand's 25 deaths</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:12:9"> with a population of 4 million</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:12:12"> you can see that almost every other country</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:12:15"> in the world has been needlessly killing off</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:12:18">tens of thousands to hundreds of thousands</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:12:21"> of people uh unnecessarily</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:12:24"> just because hardly anybody is educated</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:12:27"> enough in something that you learn in seventh</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:12:30"> or eighth grade biology so because business</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:12:33">life basically</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:12:36"> well i don't think they think of it that way you don't</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:12:39"> no they just don't see it i</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:12:42"> think if you held a gun to the head of a businessman</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:12:45"> that said would</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:12:48"> you rather live or would you rather</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:12:51"> uh stay in business i think they</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:12:54"> choose life most of the time most</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:12:57"> of the time yeah most of the time there's a famous</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:13:0"> there was a famous joke which i</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:13:3"> is told better in the u.s okay</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:13:6">which i won't won't tell here but it's quite funny about</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:13:9"> that so no i think the big problem</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:13:12">the</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:13:15"> lack of imagination</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:13:18">so if you think about what that our brain imagine readily</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:13:21"> well we can readily imagine gods</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:13:27">we've never seen them but these are things</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:13:30"> that are part of our subconscious</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:13:33"> and so and we have experienced them in</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:13:36"> dreams so we can imagine things like that</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:13:39">more readily than we can anything that</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:13:42"> that is related to science or to think scientifically</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:13:45"> yeah if it's if it's really small if it's really</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:13:48"> fast if it's really new</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:13:51"> and this is where bacon comes in because what</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:13:54">is okay or or</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:13:57">sentence here so we can go okay</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:14:0"> next question is yeah yeah so</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:14:3">you know the term artificial intelligence is</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:14:6"> used widely and very loosely</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:14:9"> these days</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:14:12"> but if you think about it what is it what is artificial</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:14:15">intelligence well it's artifice</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:14:18"> it means making something you have</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:14:21">so</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:14:24"> somehow you're trying to make some sort of a</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:14:27"> process that is going</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:14:30"> to act intelligent and</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:14:33">impressed with any such process</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:14:36"> unless it's more intelligent than a human</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:14:39"> and so if we look for something on</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:14:42"> the planet that is an artificial</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:14:45"> process that's more intelligent than any human</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:14:48"> there's only one and that's</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:14:51"> science itself</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:14:54">science is a better scientist than any scientist</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:14:57"> and science</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:15:0"> itself is that process</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:15:3"> that makes a group of people much more intelligent</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:15:6"> than human genetics human culture</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:15:9"> human language and human academics and</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:15:12"> so uh</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:15:15"> so this should be a simple idea</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:15:18"> but partly be</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:15:21"> because of the way education goes</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:15:24"> uh science has been</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:15:27"> relegated to just another belief system</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:15:30"> yeah and it is a belief</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:15:33"> system but it's a belief system that's backed</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:15:36">up with a lot more than most of the other belief systems</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:15:39"> and that can reflect on itself and it</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:15:42"> can change based on most mistakes that it makes</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:15:45"> and those things that's basically what other belief</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:15:48"> systems don't do like religions not really</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:15:51"> i think argentina is a catholic</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:15:54"> country and one of</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:15:57"> the most famous philosophers in history was saint thomas</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:16:0"> aquinas and reflecting on</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:16:3"> christianity from the standpoint of</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:16:6"> greek philosophy was exactly what he did do</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:16:9">so you don't want to you don't want to use that</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:16:12"> i think the thing that's</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:16:15"> interesting about science is</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:16:18"> the particular methods it uses to</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:16:21"> try and deal with the noisiness of our human brains it's</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:16:24"> basically an error correct detecting and correcting</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:16:27"> system if you learn how to do it</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:16:30"> and it's basically a skill so</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:16:33"> it's not something you know and some people</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:16:36">it's like in music some people have a little more talent than others</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:16:39"> but in develop music talent</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:16:42"> won't do it you say you have to</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:16:45"> practice and develop skills and</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:16:48"> the same thing is true for thinking and thinking</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:16:51"> is uh in the large</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:16:54"> is primarily the province of what's what science</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:16:57"> is about so in computing</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:17:0"> uh you can hardly see this recently</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:17:3"> recently meaning the last 30 or 40</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:17:6"> years so the in</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:17:9"> the 60s and 70s i started in</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:17:12"> like 1961 or 62</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:17:15"> the people who are doing what</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:17:18">call computer science today</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:17:21"> and what we call software engineering today</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:17:24"> started off as real scientists</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:17:27"> and started off uh</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:17:30"> as real engineers yeah we weren't having undergraduate</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:17:33">degrees that's right there was no</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:17:36"> no programming career or</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:17:39"> computer science career that's right and so the people who went</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:17:42"> into it were interested in it</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:17:45"> and just like i did it from another perspective</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:17:48"> and that allows them to to see</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:17:51">we as developers don't see</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:17:54"> it was a special thing because don't forget there</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:17:57">still ibm yeah back there</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:18:0"> and there was i i learned to program in the military</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:18:3"> in the air force and the programming there</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:18:6"> was just as uninspired</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:18:9"> as it is today yeah</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:18:12"> what was special uh was that the the</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:18:15"> research community that i just luckily</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:18:18"> stumbled into in the mid 60s</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:18:21"> had started thinking about</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:18:24"> what the computer actually meant</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:18:27">and for them it was the next 500 year invention</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:18:30"> after the printing press</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:18:33"> and many of the things that were going to be important</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:18:36"> were how it could go qualitatively beyond</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:18:39"> the civilization building inventions</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:18:42"> of the past several thousand years like writing</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:18:45"> mathematics science</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:18:48">press and so forth and that</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:18:51">o this idea and ibm</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:18:54"> did not have this idea the air force did not have</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:18:57"> this idea but these people did</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:19:0"> and because they were in a good place and because the cold</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:19:3"> war was going on there was extra money in</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:19:6"> the department of defense uh</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:19:9"> one of the people who had this idea got funded</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:19:12"> in a big way and he spread</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:19:15">the result is most of the technologies</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:19:18"> that we use today which are not invented by ibm</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:19:21"> not invented in the air force so</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:19:24">a fortunate thing the processes</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:19:27"> that led to those inventions</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:19:30"> hardly exist today yeah</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:19:33">see those kind of research</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:19:36"> and in current industry at all yeah</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:19:39">the opposite is all the opposite just short term</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:19:42"> i want to do this very fast and</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:19:45"> yeah the talks i've given</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:19:48"> about this in the past the line i put</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:19:51"> up on the screen is the goodness of the results</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:19:54"> correlates most strongly with the goodness</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:19:57"> of the funders so</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:20:0"> the rarest thing is a good funder because</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:20:3">if you look at the bell curve at the top of the bell</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:20:6"> curve in every generation you're going to get uh</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:20:9"> you know super clever people</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:20:12"> to draw and so the thing</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:20:15">different than was not us</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:20:18"> we just happened to be the lucky people</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:20:21">there the difference was in in the funding</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:20:24"> and the funders found us</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:20:27"> and uh encouraged us to follow our instincts</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:20:30">and so we've got what we've got that's what we don't</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:20:33"> have today yeah that's right so</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:20:36"> let me go back just one more question about</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:20:39"> science and then we can go to to software and and that</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:20:42"> stuff so let's let me let me play a</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:20:45"> devil's advocate here okay i</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:20:48">just for a little bit i'm not sure if i can do it right but</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:20:51"> anyway uh you know science is great you</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:20:54">it as the most one of the most important achievement of humankind</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:20:57"> and uh but science</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:21:0"> is what brought us here i mean not science</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:21:3"> we humans using science as a</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:21:6"> tool is what brought us to the situation where we</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:21:9">waste everywhere with the climate</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:21:12">you know the burning woods and</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:21:15"> those kind of things because science</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:21:18"> in science in in some way allow us to</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:21:21"> think better how to build stuff</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:21:24"> but in the other way</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:21:27">not ready to use that powerful</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:21:30"> tool so</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:21:33"> scientific in thinking can help with</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:21:36">e consequences of things but the actual historical</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:21:39"> fact is that</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:21:42"> uh business</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:21:45"> technology and the industrial revolution</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:21:48"> led us to the problem we are what</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:21:51">science did was to make engineering</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:21:54"> immense</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:21:57"> and the industrial revolution that was starting</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:22:0"> yeah was to</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:22:3"> add on to this immensely powerful ways</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:22:6"> it transformed engineering from something</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:22:9"> that was essentially cookbooking</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:22:12"> making cookbooks of things that worked</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:22:15"> doing things by uh by principles</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:22:18">being able to actually derive uh</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:22:21"> physical uh results</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:22:24"> and estimations and new</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:22:27"> kinds of materials and so forth so science</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:22:30"> is a culprit in the sense that it opened</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:22:33">up the possibilities</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:22:36"> and the power ratio</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:22:39"> or what people can do</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:22:42"> but basically when i look at</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:22:45"> history what i see is</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:22:48">today what i see</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:22:51"> is people uh</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:22:54"> just trying to get ahead</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:22:57"> in various ways and for instance in</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:23:0"> america i don't think most heads of businesses</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:23:3">are really all that aware that they're part of a</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:23:6"> country particularly</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:23:9"> the multinational ones and certainly</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:23:12"> uh if we go back 200</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:23:15"> 000 years ago we have to look</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:23:18"> at something that we can find in all mammals</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:23:21"> that</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:23:24"> that we have also which is trade-offs</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:23:27"> between two powerful forces</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:23:30">that are very different one is cooperation and</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:23:33"> one is competition</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:23:39">the</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:23:42"> more powerful one unfortunately is competition</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:23:45"> in the end</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:23:48"> it takes a very very special person</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:23:51"> not to try and save themselves</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:23:54"> even though we know cooperation</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:23:57">better than competition it is and not</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:24:0"> only that uh you</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:24:3"> know the reason uh there are social species</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:24:6"> of which we are one of them is because cooperation</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:24:9"> uh even if you're in a wolf pack</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:24:12"> allows the pack to</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:24:15">and you're in</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:24:18"> a baboon troop it allows the baboon so</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:24:21"> uh cooperation</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:24:24"> evolved as</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:24:27"> uh all the other traits evolved</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:24:30"> underneath that though</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:24:33"> is competition and so</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:24:36"> you know sociologically</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:24:39"> people feel deprived if they are put into</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:24:42"> solitary confinement or banished</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:24:45"> but as soon as they get back into society</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:24:48"> they start competing</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:24:51">and it radiates</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:24:54"> out from them to their</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:24:57"> you know there's a saying in some of the arab</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:25:0"> countries that uh me against my</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:25:3">i against our family</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:25:6"> our family against our neighbors</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:25:9">o these</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:25:12"> uh tribal uh identity</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:25:15"> things radiate outwards</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:25:18">and there are many science fiction stories written about</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:25:21"> how to unite the human race will just uh</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:25:24"> attack the world with aliens</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:25:27"> and all of a sudden then the humanity can see itself</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:25:30"> as a bigger tribe that's right and</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:25:33">get together and fight the aliens because yeah</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:25:36"> so this this is the this is uh thinking of</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:25:39"> completely immature beings who have</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:25:42"> no real sense of of what's going on</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:25:45"> the big deal in business</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:25:48"> is at least in america</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:25:51"> is most of the ceos i</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:25:54"> know are not</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:25:57"> really aware that the reason</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:26:0"> they're making money at all is because</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:26:3"> they exist within a cooperative structure</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:26:6"> that was set up 250</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:26:9"> years ago the wealth</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:26:12"> that they are tapping into is there</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:26:15"> because of the cooperative structure and then they're competing</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:26:18"> underneath it so again just just to finish</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:26:21"> this off to go back 200 000 years ago</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:26:24"> you ask well</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:26:27"> if we go back before there's hardly any</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:26:30"> culture there's probably never</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:26:33"> a time you know because uh primates have cultures</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:26:36"> oh so before that even before</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:26:39">go back okay when we have</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:26:42"> almost no culture</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:26:45"> there's almost no language yeah</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:26:48"> but we ask well what uh how did things</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:26:51"> uh managed to survive back</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:26:54"> then and the answer is genetically we</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:26:57"> have drives to reproduce</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:27:0"> that are very strong yeah we have</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:27:3"> uh drive</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:27:6"> to find food and water</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:27:9"> so hunting and gathering</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:27:12"> is predates any kind</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:27:15"> of cooperation if you're</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:27:18"> by yourself you're still going to be looking for food and water</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:27:21">yeah and if you think about hunting gathering</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:27:24"> it doesn't scale well yeah</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:27:27"> right hunting and gathering one of the scalings</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:27:30"> of it is to steal things</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:27:33"> one of the scalings of it is to</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:27:36"> uh strip a</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:27:39"> cooperative area dry yeah</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:27:42"> so there are many many variations</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:27:45">of this and so one of the</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:27:48"> complaints that you could have about school</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:27:51"> is that schools do not</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:27:54"> teach at least in the united states again</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:27:57"> schools do not teach the</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:28:0"> children anything important about their own species</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:28:3"> these are kind of taboo subjects</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:28:6"> what are human beings actually</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:28:9"> and we just we aren't very</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:28:12">pretty as a species when you start looking at it from that standpoint</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:28:15"> but the good part</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:28:18"> of looking at it that way is we get to see</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:28:21">how a</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:28:24"> civilization can be</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:28:27"> kinder can be more cooperative can</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:28:30"> be smarter all of these things</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:28:33">and that is something that uh you need to learn early</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:28:36"> because certainly mo i would say most american adults have</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:28:39">idea about this at all from their standpoint</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:28:42">his battle for survival</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:28:45"> yeah competition is is being taught in</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:28:48"> high school and schools on sports</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:28:51"> and all those things instead of instead of cooperation yeah</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:28:54"> yeah and rhetoric and governments is we're</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:28:57"> not competitive enough what</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:29:0"> how could what does that mean on a finite planet</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:29:3">hat's crazy</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:29:9">i don't mean as a metaphor i mean this it is literally</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:29:12"> insane yeah well it's what is happening to</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:29:18">yeah and of course the you know scientists</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:29:21"> were aware of the climate problems</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:29:24"> uh starting in the early 60s</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:29:27"> yeah yeah they knew</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:29:30"> about it and and the people the business people</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:29:33"> tried to not to the idea to spread</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:29:36"> out yeah yeah it's not if the business</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:29:39"> people really understood it they</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:29:42"> uh could actually see</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:29:45">one of the one of the biggest problems with lack of history</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:29:51">is besides</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:29:54"> trying to avoid blunders that</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:29:57">done early</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:30:0"> we reinvent the flat tire all the time</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:30:3"> as you said reinvent the flat tire all the time</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:30:6"> but the other thing is we miss opportunities</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:30:9"> so for example whenever we've had</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:30:12"> a big calamity</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:30:15"> in the last 100 or more years</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:30:18">usually</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:30:21"> things have not been prepared well enough for it</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:30:24"> these glamorous are usually wars not always</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:30:27"> but for example the result</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:30:30"> of the wars</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:30:33"> the aftermath of the wars is</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:30:36"> usually prosperity</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:30:39"> and the reason is is that it's in war when</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:30:42"> there's the extra investing kind of investment</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:30:45"> that conservative people don't like to</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:30:48">make or anything</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:30:51"> yeah when you're really</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:30:54"> in trouble you might give a smart</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:30:57">person you don't understand some money anyway</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:31:0"> just right and so the kind</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:31:3"> of funding research funding that's done during a war</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:31:6"> is unfortunately almost the only</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:31:9">kind of research funding that is uh</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:31:12"> that has been done it's when people this is why the</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:31:15">institute of health in the united states</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:31:18"> gets more than three times the funding than all of the</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:31:21"> national science foundation national</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:31:24"> science foundation funds all the other sciences</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:31:27">but the national institute of health why because</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:31:30"> people are afraid of dying so they're much</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:31:33"> politically they they can</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:31:36"> imagine their own death they're afraid of it and there</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:31:39"> is a goal that unites them to do that funding</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:31:42"> yeah in that case the real</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:31:45">problem with all of the the problems in</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:31:48">recreating arpa and xerox park</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:31:51"> uh in recent times</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:31:54"> have been that the the mostly billionaires that</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:31:57"> have tried it uh they</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:32:0"> want to uh direct the research</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:32:3"> yeah and i've told any number of them</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:32:6"> i said well you shouldn't be doing</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:32:9"> this because if you look at why arpa and xerox</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:32:12"> park succeeded</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:32:15"> the people who directed the research were the people</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:32:18"> who were going to do the research the people who chose the problems</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:32:21"> were these uh top</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:32:24"> researchers that's right and with all due respect</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:32:27">sir you've spent the last 20 years</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:32:30"> becoming a billionaire</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:32:33"> researcher and so the chances that you can</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:32:36"> pick a good research problem are essentially zero</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:32:39"> you just want to be a wannabe</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:32:42"> you want to be part of this and you're</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:32:45">not satisfied with your billion you want to do this too</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:32:48"> but you're incompetent to do it so in</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:32:51"> government it's slightly different uh</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:32:54"> where the people who are responsible</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:32:57">think they need to be in control because you</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:33:0"> know they are responsible yeah that's right but the</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:33:3">made arpa and park different was that the people</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:33:6">who are responsible knew they couldn't be in control</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:33:9"> yeah yeah big lighter and bob taylor they</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:33:12"> allow you to do whatever you want</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:33:15"> for trying to get a culture</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:33:18"> going trying to find talent</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:33:21">responsible so taylor</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:33:24"> never suggested a single research</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:33:27"> project uh at park and</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:33:30"> lick lighter stayed with his vision</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:33:33"> and people asked well how are you going to do the vision</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:33:36">know but i'm going to fund people</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:33:39">know yeah and they'll take</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:33:42"> 30 or 40 this is you know</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:33:45"> this is more like playing baseball yeah it's hard</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:33:48"> to get and it is interesting because bob</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:33:51"> taylor was a psychologist wasn't he</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:33:54"> and lee glider that's right so they they</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:33:57">knew how people how to get people together</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:34:0">stuff i think there is some of that</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:34:3"> both of them happen to be experimental psychologists</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:34:6"> okay we're not clinical</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:34:9"> yeah yeah and they're</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:34:12">different personalities lick was</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:34:15"> just a very nice guy</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:34:18"> and okay you're special though he was</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:34:21">one of the inventors of cognitive psychology</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:34:24"> so he's special but his personality was</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:34:27">also special taylor</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:34:30"> was a uh</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:34:33"> much more aggressive</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:34:36"> okay he adored</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:34:39"> lick glider okay and</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:34:42"> uh when he when he</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:34:45"> was part of the arpa thing he put a lot of effort</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:34:48">exactly why what</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:34:51"> lick lighter did was working so well</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:34:54"> and when he became head of head of the</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:34:57">computing research at park he put those principles</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:35:0">he was not acting by instinct</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:35:3"> he knew how to do it you were basically yeah</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:35:6"> he said uh this is what lick lighter</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:35:9"> did by instinct</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:35:12"> uh we can we can do this by method</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:35:15"> we'll just do do</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:35:18"> it this way and park</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:35:21"> was a concentration of both</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:35:24"> talent and method yeah and it was</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:35:27"> amazing wasn't it well</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:35:30"> i mean everything that you've done there</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:35:33"> yeah well i think the most amazing thing</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:35:36">was uh the bulk of the the work</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:35:39"> that's known today was done by you know</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:35:42"> 25 or 30 people yeah yeah everyone</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:35:45"> every part of it and so the concentration</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:35:48"> of of abilities there was</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:35:51"> large and the concentration of method</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:35:54"> the taylor's application</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:35:57"> of what he thought was a good way</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:36:0"> to do this thing was more powerful than the</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:36:3"> than the more ad hoc arpa</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:36:6"> management way that he'd learn from</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:36:9"> so yeah so</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:36:12"> so i always i when i look to</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:36:15"> when people ask me questions i said well you know</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:36:18"> don't look at us look at look</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:36:21"> at the you know the four funders at arpa were</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:36:24"> lick lighter ivan sutherland</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:36:27"> larry roberts and then taylor</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:36:30"> came and did park and so if</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:36:33"> you if you want to thank somebody thank them</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:36:36"> and you know</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:36:39"> uh when we've gotten metals in</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:36:42"> the past uh i mean my</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:36:45"> line is that well um you know metal</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:36:48"> 40 years after the fact is okay but</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:36:51"> the if you if you want a real</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:36:54"> reward think of the reward for being</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:36:57">this work yeah back</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:37:0"> then to actually do that's the big deal</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:37:3"> and then as much of a reward is the</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:37:6"> fact that the funders were giving us gold medals</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:37:9"> and a lot more gold than was in the</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:37:12"> gold medals they were giving it us</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:37:15"> before the fact knowing that most of it was going to turn</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:37:18"> into lead so</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:37:21">when you get funding like that and you get to do the</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:37:24"> work uh you don't need anything uh</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:37:27">that's it that's it yeah</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:37:30">place in the you know the right environment</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:37:33">you create it was great and we</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:37:36"> knew it was great back then uh</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:37:39"> and uh our</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:37:42"> appreciation for it went up by about a factor of thousands</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:37:45"> after it ended</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:37:48"> yeah yeah yeah right because i was in</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:37:51"> it i had been out</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:37:54"> of the regular culture</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:37:57">because i was in it in grad school and then uh for 10</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:38:0"> years at xerox park and so i've</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:38:3"> been completely isolated from the outside computing</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:38:6"> culture for 15 or 16</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:38:9"> years and i was quite shocked</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:38:12"> when you get out of there yeah</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:38:15"> about everything i</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:38:18"> can imagine yeah yeah i can imagine so let's</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:38:21"> go to that subject now to software</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:38:24"> if you don't mind because i know i know</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:38:27">that you can talk for an hour by yourself</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:38:30">i i need to do something you know</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:38:33"> you should interrupt me uh by the way</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:38:36">much okay</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:38:39"> okay yeah but i'm not sure when to interact</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:38:42"> when to know but anyway so let's</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:38:45"> let's talk about software and basically software design</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:38:48"> uh you know for a long time software design has been</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:38:51"> thought as drawing uh</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:38:54"> on paper you know and to the design</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:38:57"> was to draw basically what you</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:39:0"> thought the organization of the system should be</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:39:3">while you were running the system in your head</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:39:6">so you were imagining the system and then</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:39:9"> making some draws and you know that was designed</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:39:12">time that was the classic idea as you mentioned</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:39:15">flowcharts in the air force uh you</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:39:18"> know that was maybe thought as design but</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:39:21"> uh you know we know that that doesn't work</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:39:24"> at least what you know the history</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:39:27">tell us that it doesn't work so what</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:39:30"> is for you software design because you talk about it in your talk</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:39:33">you talk about cad and those kind of things so what</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:39:36">activities should i</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:39:39"> should be done in software design</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:39:42"> i think the first thing is</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:39:45"> uh i'm sorry i'm sorry to interrupt</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:39:48"> you to finish the question because you also</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:39:51">talk about meaning creation of meaning</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:39:54"> and how do you relate that to design i think</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:39:57"> that the key point is there so yeah</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:40:0"> i think the first thing the simple</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:40:3"> thing is that</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:40:9">you know the thing i had to get</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:40:12"> over in a hurry when i went from</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:40:15"> being a journeyman programmer</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:40:18"> in the early 60s to accidentally</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:40:21">research community</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:40:24"> was that the</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:40:27"> the average program</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:40:30"> in the early 60s was relatively</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:40:33"> easy to do</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:40:36"> the computers were small and</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:40:39"> so the main problem in programming back</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:40:42">then was more than anything else</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:40:45">get completely</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:40:48"> mired in optimization</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:40:51">because you had to optimize you didn't have enough memory you didn't</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:40:54">enough uh cycles</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:40:57"> uh so that the tendency</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:41:0"> was to convol as people do today</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:41:3"> yeah yeah we're still doing that having</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:41:6">that old school in in our heads yeah</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:41:9"> so the uh however arpa</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:41:12"> was uh</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:41:15"> basically the people who</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:41:18"> were our mentors first</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:41:21"> generation people who were funded by lick lighter</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:41:24"> we're basically all systems people</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:41:27"> they have many of them</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:41:30">sage air defense</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:41:33"> system which was</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:41:36">24 installations of</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:41:39"> two computers the size of a</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:41:42"> softball a football field</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:41:45"> wow there was one floor</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:41:48"> of a four-story building the basement of the building</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:41:51"> was the power supply for</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:41:54"> these computers so we could think of two amazing</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:41:57"> and then the third</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:42:0"> floor was operations and the top floor</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:42:3"> had 150 graphics terminals</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:42:6"> that were run by these enormous</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:42:9"> vacuum tube computers and</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:42:12"> the government built 24 of these block</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:42:15">houses wow all connected</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:42:18"> into the radar systems of the of the country</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:42:21"> and so that's what these</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:42:24"> people were doing in the 50s and</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:42:27"> so the monumental scale</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:42:30"> of</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:42:33"> people who came out of world war ii</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:42:36"> and i should mention here for</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:42:39"> people who are interested in history if you want to understand</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:42:42"> where the mental framework</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:42:45"> came from for the</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:42:48"> this uh research work in the 60s and 70s it</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:42:51"> came out of the mostly out of the radar work</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:42:54"> which was jointly between</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:42:57">uk and the uk yeah i'm</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:43:0"> primarily at mit but started</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:43:3"> off in in britain and there's a great story there's some great</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:43:6">books read about it and</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:43:9">a talk that you had with a</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:43:12">on youtube that where you talk</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:43:15"> about that i've got a couple of talks about that i've written</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:43:18"> some papers yeah about</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:43:21"> it also another monumental</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:43:24"> effort was the manhattan</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:43:27"> project</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:43:30">so most people aren't who don't the manhattan project they spent</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:43:33"> you think about what the us was doing in</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:43:36">world war ii the manhattan project itself</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:43:39"> cost more than one percent</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:43:42"> of all of the defense funding</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:43:45">war ii so</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:43:48"> it involved about 800</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:43:51"> 000 people it involved</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:43:54"> making new cities yeah</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:43:57"> because they went wherever they could find cooling water and they</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:44:0">built new cities they brought in school teachers they bought</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:44:3"> in doctors they built entire cities they built</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:44:6">plants of acres and acres they didn't know</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:44:9"> the best way to refine</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:44:12"> get refined uh material</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:44:15"> for the for the bombs there are four</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:44:18">known ways and general grove said well let's let's</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:44:21"> just go all out on all four of them</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:44:24">and he was the he was the head of this project</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:44:27"> and so his history is worthwhile</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:44:30"> reading to read about uh</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:44:33"> you know something at scale that scale</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:44:36"> yeah yeah and the same thing is and i've used</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:44:39"> this many times in talks is my background partly</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:44:42"> was in uh molecular</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:44:45"> biology and you have my favorite book up there</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:44:48"> yeah yeah behind you yeah</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:44:51">that's my favorite edition of the book the third is oh</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:44:54"> cool the red one the right one not</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:44:57">one that's i think that was the sweet spot</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:45:0"> and uh they haven't read it yet</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:45:3">little bit big one of the best</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:45:6"> reads ever yeah it's about a thousand pages long</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:45:9">one week one week of reading</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:45:12">you're in uh</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:45:15"> so if you come out of that background computers are</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:45:18"> tiny tiny tiny little things</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:45:21"> and systems</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:45:24"> are even the</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:45:27"> largest human-built systems are small compared</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:45:30"> to what biology pulls</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:45:33">off and of course a lot of the stuff in biology</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:45:36"> uh can't be applied to computing</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:45:39"> just because of the nature</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:45:42"> of the way the materials themselves work and</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:45:45"> what things are like at sub microscopic</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:45:48"> scales but a lot of it does</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:45:51"> and another book that was very influential</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:45:54"> was uh christopher alexander's</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:45:57">book which is his phd</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:46:0"> thesis called notes on a synthesis of form</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:46:3"> yes yeah he repudiated this book</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:46:6"> because he got hippified uh</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:46:9"> after he went to berkeley went into a different</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:46:12">subsequently wasn't that bad</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:46:15"> but this phd thesis book was</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:46:18"> really interesting and his</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:46:21"> his main example</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:46:24"> done after this fascinating</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:46:27">discourse of how you think about complexity</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:46:30"> and design and the conflicts</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:46:33"> and finding them and</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:46:36"> modulizing things and it's just great it's</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:46:39"> great today it's just a great book i have it here</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:46:42"> somewhere yeah but the end</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:46:45"> the the end example of it is</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:46:48"> taking the uh</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:46:51">new uh a new</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:46:54"> uh village in india from</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:46:57"> scratch so it's going to have a</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:47:0">population of a few thousand people and it has</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:47:3"> you know a thousand or two constraints</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:47:6"> of every different</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:47:9"> kind in the thing and how are you going to design this</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:47:12">and this is great because this is not a typical</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:47:15"> if you're looking for computing stuff</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:47:18"> uh people are start taught programming</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:47:21">examples that are nothing like</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:47:24"> or should be nothing like anything they're going to do</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:47:27"> for real yeah yeah yeah that's right</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:47:30">much better off dealing with us</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:47:33">a live running system</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:47:36"> like say small talk yeah or even</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:47:39"> javascript although the it's so ugly in there</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:47:42"> but it's live so</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:47:45">system that you can look at</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:47:48"> you're much better off learning how to program in</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:47:51"> the context of the system because</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:47:54"> then you start having to sift into</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:47:57"> your mind yeah it's</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:48:0">because you have to to realize</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:48:3"> that if you change something you can break it while running</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:48:6"> so it you know you can do you can learn a</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:48:9"> little bit of driving a car driving around</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:48:12"> a field or a parking lot yeah with no cars</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:48:15"> on it but really driving is learning how to drive on a</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:48:18">street where you have stop signs and you have that's right</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:48:21"> there's all these things you have to worry about and it's very confusing</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:48:24"> and the process of learning how to drive</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:48:27">is learning how to create things</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:48:30"> in your mind for dealing with all</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:48:33"> of the heuristics that have to be done in real time but</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:48:36"> so design is again one of these thinking skills</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:48:39"> and part of it part</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:48:42">skill is how to hold</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:48:45"> in your mind simultaneously</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:48:48"> uh things</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:48:51"> that conflict or seem to</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:48:54">rather than trying to resolve them too early</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:48:57">and i forget whether i did it in this talk or not but</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:49:0">about you know our ideas made</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:49:6">or like categories where they can't interpenetrate</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:49:9"> or</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:49:12"> they</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:49:15"> hello</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:49:18">i think i lost i think</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:49:21"> we lost yeah oh we lost you</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:49:24"> the last yeah 30 seconds chris</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:49:27"> from my point yeah so the question is are ideas made out</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:49:30"> of matter yeah</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:49:33"> so one idea can't is basically</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:49:36"> antagonistic to another or rd is made out of radiation</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:49:39"> so you can shine lots lots of colored</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:49:42"> lights at a wall and they superpose</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:49:45">so you can see all of them there they don't interfere</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:49:48"> with each other you see interesting combinations</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:49:51"> and that's one of the states you have to get into</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:49:54"> when you design or when you think about anything</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:49:57"> when you're dealing with complexity</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:50:0">the last thing you should try to do is solve a problem</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:50:3"> the number one thing you have to do when you're dealing</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:50:6"> with complexity is to try and find out what's going on</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:50:9">yeah try to find a way of looking at what's going</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:50:12">yeah the problem the problem finding instead of</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:50:15"> the problem solving grinding is and that was the big</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:50:18"> one of the big things i got in arpa yeah</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:50:21"> they realized the problem finding is that and so</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:50:24"> when you get to software</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:50:27">and think about what's the software possible the</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:50:30"> pro software process is</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:50:33"> trying to deal with</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:50:36">e kinds of things that alexander was dealing with</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:50:39"> and the first thing you have to have is some</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:50:42"> understanding of what the meaning is</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:50:45"> before you start trying to to optimize so</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:50:48"> alex so if you look at alexander the i should</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:50:51"> have brought brought the book</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:50:54">i have it in my room i don't have it here but yeah</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:51:0">i have it here</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:51:3">oh my</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:51:6"> god</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:51:9"> this is london so i don't have my real</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:51:12"> library here but</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:51:18">i have about a thousand</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:51:21"> whoops i have about a thousand books here</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:51:24"> just just a few and i</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:51:27"> need some yeah so this book</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:51:30"> yeah you can't</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:51:33"> uh praise it too highly</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:51:36">eah</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:51:39"> i read it it's really interesting it opens your</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:51:42"> mind yeah so here's his final</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:51:45"> design of the village</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:51:48">uh but of the most interesting</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:51:51"> things is how careful he is</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:51:57">yeah so appendix</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:52:0"> one is the worked example where he</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:52:3"> looks at hundreds of constraints</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:52:6"> and tries to put them down very carefully</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:52:9"> if you look at the requirements and of course</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:52:12"> the</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:52:15"> real question is are you actually saying anything when</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:52:18">requirement down in a lot in a natural language</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:52:21"> so</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:52:24"> the belief we had when we started thinking</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:52:27"> about this stuff and you bet again</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:52:30"> the arpa community</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:52:33"> invented computer-aided design</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:52:36"> and general motors</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:52:39"> was doing also doing a project but</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:52:42"> i think was most strongly invented</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:52:45"> in sketchpad by ivan sutherland</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:52:48"> and then especially by his brother bert</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:52:51"> and others at lincoln lab and</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:52:54"> mit had a huge numerically</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:52:57">tool project</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:53:0"> that was also about computer-aided design so</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:53:3"> the idea is you and a lot of the computer graphics that was</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:53:6">then was to try and see whether you could define</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:53:9"> shapes using</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:53:12"> graphics that a program</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:53:15"> could look at the shape and see what a</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:53:18"> five-axis milling machine</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:53:21"> would have to do to make that shape out of a</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:53:24"> piece of metal and so there's a lot of</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:53:27"> that and of course the</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:53:30"> shape that you want like when you make a flange</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:53:33"> yes uh</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:53:36"> that flange might not be strong enough</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:53:39"> in its yeah</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:53:42"> in its simple flangeness</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:53:45"> yeah you might have to put a fillet</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:53:48"> you know which is extra metal yeah to make it stronger</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:53:51"> on the bend part so you can think of that</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:53:54"> as something that would be revealed</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:53:57"> in simulation so</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:54:0"> sketchpad when you designed something in sketchpad</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:54:3"> you didn't just you weren't just doing a drawing</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:54:6"> you would get something that because you had all the</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:54:9">constraints and the simulation to see what yeah</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:54:12"> so and and going back sorry to interrupt</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:54:15"> you because we're running out of time and i have a bunch of</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:54:18"> questions and i want i want to go to one at least one</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:54:21">questions from the people i don't want to be the only one asking</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:54:24"> but um you know you mentioned small talk and</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:54:27"> you know that amazing uh system</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:54:30">dan ingalls and adele goldberg</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:54:33">other people and you know working is</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:54:36"> with small talk as you said it's like working in a living</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:54:39">system where you are changing it while the</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:54:42">system runs but also one of the main</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:54:45"> features of small talk is the immediate feedback and</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:54:48"> you you know brett victor he he gave a great talk about</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:54:51"> immediate feedback and how important that is to design</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:54:54">stuff to work with staff so how do you see</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:54:57"> immediate feedback in in software development how important</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:55:0">you think i think you know</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:55:3">put into my talk</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:55:6"> session i just did another talk</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:55:9"> okay okay no but you didn't talk about immediate feedback</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:55:12"> in your talk yeah but i might have thrown in</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:55:15"> uh four stages</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:55:18"> yes yes uh the tinkering</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:55:21">engineering followers that's right and i was going</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:55:24">you forgot art why you didn't</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:55:27"> put art in there also oh it all</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:55:30"> is oh okay okay because what art</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:55:33"> art the the greek</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:55:36"> word uh art comes from the</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:55:39"> latin ours and</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:55:42"> the the greek root which goes back even earlier</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:55:45"> is techni okay so technology</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:55:48"> literally means anything that</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:55:51"> humans make anything</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:55:54"> okay so what what</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:55:57"> happened is in the 19th century uh</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:56:0"> painting and sculpture took the term</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:56:3">art oh it used to be called the fine</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:56:6"> arts okay okay let's see i</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:56:9"> see yeah that's like uh it's like</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:56:12"> uh a.i used to mean something different than stuff today</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:56:15"> that's right yeah yeah object oriented</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:56:18"> used to mean something new today</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:56:21"> so people people do this but in fact</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:56:24"> in many of the presentations i do i show</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:56:27">these four guys sitting</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:56:30"> the larger context around them</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:56:33">is art because it's everything everything</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:56:36">that's that's why artificial</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:56:39">means something special</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:56:42"> yeah doesn't mean</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:56:45"> something bad perfectly means</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:56:48"> something that's made</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:56:51"> okay is</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:56:54"> intelligence that is made that is made yeah</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:56:57"> so yeah so</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:57:0"> uh so if you look at those four things</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:57:3"> uh and the point i make is</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:57:6"> in modern times you want to be</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:57:9"> in the sweet spot at the center</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:57:12">ight yeah that combines diagrams</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:57:15"> yeah so you want to choose when am i going to tinker</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:57:18">scientist tinker</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:57:21"> engineers tinker mathematicians tinker so you have to</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:57:24">tinker that's right yeah you have to be you</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:57:27"> have to make things principled it's not</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:57:30"> just an engineering but uh like i have also</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:57:33"> have a degree in pure math so if you're</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:57:36"> going to make a mathematical proof it's at</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:57:39"> least as engineered as a bridges</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:57:42">it has to have that integrity</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:57:45">connectiveness in order to be</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:57:48"> considered a good proof yeah so</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:57:51"> yeah and then science has this extra</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:57:54"> important way of being a</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:57:57">between what's inside of our</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:58:0"> heads and the kinds of phenomena that we</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:58:3"> deal with out there so it's it's a meta</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:58:6"> thing that's much more complex than the rest of these</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:58:9"> ideas and much more powerful</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:58:12"> so so if you try and apply that</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:58:15">map software into it it's usually</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:58:18"> way off uh yeah yeah</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:58:21">bit and wearing</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:58:24"> uh hardly any math no real</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:58:27"> science so if you try</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:58:30"> and map that into some modern system</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:58:33"> that you might try to make</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:58:36">one of the number one things i think anybody would do</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:58:39"> and certainly we did</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:58:42"> what we could do back in the 70s</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:58:45">was to say yeah we have to do cad and sin</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:58:48"> you have to be able to do computer-aided design</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:58:51"> which means we have to be able to continue it's</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:58:54">graphics that we have to continually develop</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:58:57"> the thing we have</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:59:0"> in mind so we can at least fasten on the meaning</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:59:3"> of it so the compute</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:59:6"> the cad part is meaning it's semantics</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:59:9"> and the</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:59:12"> simulation part is because</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:59:15"> beyond a few sentences</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:59:18"> you shouldn't trust 20</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:59:21"> or 30 or 100 requirements yeah</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:59:24"> that's right without debugging that's right</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:59:27"> that's that's something we do actually in software development</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:59:30"> with testing you know there is a</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:59:33">test-driven development i don't know if you heard about it uh</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:59:36"> yeah sure but that the problem with that</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:59:39"> is that you know</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:59:42"> if it were good let's let's</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:59:45">you're doing it well yeah and</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:59:48"> in theory you should be able to run</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:59:51">uh you should be able to on a supercomputer you should be able</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:59:54">bring uh the thing to life right if</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="1:59:57">is covering everything uh the truth</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:0:0">at's right some parts of</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:0:3"> it yes so the biggest problem with</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:0:6">want to have tests but the problem</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:0:9"> is it loses the larger integrity</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:0:12"> of what we need in designing a system</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:0:15">that's right yeah so i think</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:0:18"> it's it's not that you don't want to have tests but i think</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:0:21"> trying to start with tests is</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:0:24"> and again</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:0:27"> sometimes i throw in a lump of clay yeah</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:0:30"> yeah you did can you i did okay so</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:0:33"> it's pretty hard to debug a lump of clay into</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:0:36"> a really nice piece of sculpture</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:0:39"> yeah yeah and but you got to test</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:0:42">everything continuously right yeah you</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:0:45"> have to have a vision of what it is that</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:0:48"> you do yes but starting starting with the test</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:0:51"> it's like thinking about the meanings first instead</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:0:54"> of thinking about the no no it's it's thinking about</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:0:57"> criteria the question is is</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:1:0">you know the way to think about the meanings</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:1:3">is to think about the simplest thing that is</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:1:6"> like the thing that you want</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:1:9"> that gets you no so starting off uh</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:1:12"> uh asking</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:1:15"> about bathroom facilities</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:1:18"> is not going to lead you to a village design</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:1:21"> no of course so what you need to think about</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:1:24"> is what is the simplest thing that's like a village okay</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:1:27"> okay let's see that gives you the system</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:1:30">okay that gives you many of the main things that the system</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:1:33"> has to have and then that's not going to be</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:1:36"> uh nearly</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:1:39"> detailed enough or scaled</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:1:42"> enough but it has its it's</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:1:45"> a vision of the whole yeah</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:1:48">i think we don't have too much time</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:1:51">i'm sorry to interrupt you again i think we need like six hours</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:1:54">three ten days to talk about everything</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:1:57">uys are organizing you you</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:2:0"> know too much alan you know too much it's</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:2:3"> difficult it's difficult too</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:2:6"> but let me at least ask you one question</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:2:9">from the audience um we have one from maximo</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:2:12"> prieto he he admires you because</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:2:15">and he his question</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:2:18"> is what can we as simple programmers</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:2:21"> not the owners of the business do to</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:2:24">provoke a change in the way we are forced to program</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:2:27"> today i think we deserve to program in a better</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:2:30"> way yeah so well i think that's the big problem when i</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:2:33"> was a professional programmer</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:2:36"> you know it was somebody else's machine somebody</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:2:39"> else's software somebody else's</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:2:42"> problem so i was</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:2:45"> you know at the bottom of this</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:2:48"> of this machinery on on the other hand</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:2:51"> what we did have</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:2:54">lot of this was in machine code</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:2:57"> but the nice thing is uh the</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:3:0"> machine code systems back then</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:3:3">many of them had really good macro systems</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:3:6"> and so anybody</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:3:9"> who wanted to survive back then and particularly</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:3:12"> with regard to this question</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:3:15"> the first thing we would do</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:3:18">a bunch of us who are involved in these projects</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:3:21"> is to spend a fair amount of our time</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:3:24"> each week often each day</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:3:27"> working with each other on macros</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:3:30"> that would give us higher level</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:3:33">blocks so basically programming language</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:3:36">dsl basically making</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:3:42">because otherwise you're at</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:3:45"> the you're in the wrong place</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:3:48"> for uh changing your mind so</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:3:51">about one of the ways of thinking about this thing is</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:3:54"> uh and certainly was the way</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:3:57">people approached it and the arpa community really approached</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:4:0"> it was let's</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:4:3"> admit that human beings are terrible thinkers</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:4:6"> that means we are terrible thinkers</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:4:9"> what can we do about that well it means that</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:4:12">most of our ideas are going to be mediocre down to bad</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:4:15"> let's just put that right</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:4:21">hat's right let's</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:4:24">as a you know that's the yeah let's</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:4:27"> face it we still want to make progress so what</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:4:30"> can we do well what we need to do is to be able to</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:4:33"> fix things so we can change our</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:4:36"> mind and what are those things we can do well</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:4:39">starting to happen back when i was a</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:4:42"> uh when i was a programmer like one</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:4:45"> of the machines i programmed on back then did</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:4:48"> not have any index registers</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:4:51">really basic yeah</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:4:54"> but you don't need an index register you</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:4:57"> can go in and modify addresses that's right</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:5:0"> what index registers are is late</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:5:3"> binding something</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:5:6"> yeah give you both safety and</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:5:9"> a way of changing your mind more easily</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:5:12"> every time you use a an indirect pointer</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:5:15"> you are allowing</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:5:18"> allowing</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:5:21"> the possibility of sticking something in between</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:5:24"> that's right to change that that the</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:5:27"> other way would be static but in that way it's dynamic</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:5:30">it later on yeah idea</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:5:33"> is virtually nothing that's important</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:5:36"> should you know the actual address of</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:5:39"> and one other thing and i've</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:5:42">this you know long ago a big</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:5:45">although it wasn't nearly as big as</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:5:48"> it as it should have been became a really big</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:5:51"> revelation later on</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:5:54"> but the the file system</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:5:57"> uh on the borough's beach</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:6:0"> uh rose 220</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:6:3"> in the air force so there were no operating systems</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:6:6">then and they wanted to exchange</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:6:9"> tapes with files on them</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:6:12"> and the way they hit on doing this</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:6:15"> and i don't know who did it but</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:6:18"> the idea was that the and these</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:6:21"> piles were long because i won't go into the</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:6:24"> weirdness of the tape drives back then but</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:6:27"> so the front part of this was</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:6:30">bunch of a vec you know</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:6:33"> an array yeah of pointers</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:6:36"> further on down in the file</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:6:39"> into the second part of the file which is a bunch of borrows</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:6:42"> 220 programs</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:6:45"> machine codes yeah those are machine code programs</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:6:48"> yeah and then the last part which could be</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:6:51"> the size of the rest of the tape were all</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:6:54"> the data records and the way</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:6:57"> you way you uh read a tape is the tape</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:7:0"> always got read into the same place in memory</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:7:3"> and the only thing that was standardized was</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:7:6"> what the index positions in this</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:7:9"> first array actually meant</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:7:12"> like so it was basically a</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:7:15"> class with messages pointing to</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:7:18">methods basically that yeah yeah and i</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:7:21">real you know and it was great</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:7:24"> we we called that data driven programming back then</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:7:27"> yeah okay because what what</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:7:30">want to do is write your own code</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:7:33">to understand what you needed to do</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:7:36"> was just understand you know if you want to find record</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:7:39"> 150 and of course there are different</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:7:42"> sizes but it didn't matter because the code</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:7:45"> there knew what size these guys were it knew</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:7:48"> whether where the data is right</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:7:51"> so nothing nothing was fixed but it was</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:7:54">dynamically decided by the</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:7:57"> code yeah i got there in 1961 and</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:8:0"> that was that was already in place</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:8:3"> yeah wow yeah so that</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:8:6"> was how you did things on the on the</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:8:9"> borough's 220 for air</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:8:12"> training command records</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:8:15"> and but you know if you look at the principle</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:8:18"> behind it yes it's like the principle of oop</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:8:21">that's right basically your abstracting and sketchpad</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:8:24"> which was done about the same time had</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:8:27"> the same idea sketchpad object</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:8:30"> was</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:8:33"> mostly a bunch of indirect points of the</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:8:36"> thing called display and sketchpad</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:8:39"> was just a pointer at a</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:8:42">specific position in this data</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:8:45"> record for the thing and you just</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:8:48"> jumped in direct through it and it would take you to the procedure</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:8:51"> that was most well suited for displaying</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:8:54"> that particular kind of thing there so</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:8:57"> even though in the sketchpad those things</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:9:0"> were more like prototypes than that classes is that</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:9:3">i don't know if you look if you read the thesis</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:9:6"> yeah everybody should because no he</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:9:9">had uh even something like</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:9:12"> inheritance oh really well</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:9:15"> no no it was</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:9:18"> sketch paper they were not prototypes like</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:9:21"> that you cloned because i thought that they were like</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:9:24">cloned to have another one</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:9:27"> not like no no okay okay</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:9:30"> okay so but anyway once</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:9:33"> you know i saw a sketch pad</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:9:36"> a few years later in 66 in my first</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:9:39">in grad school along with simula and</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:9:42"> it was having seen</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:9:45"> this this idea like five or six times</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:9:48">a row because the borough's b5000</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:9:51"> had a variant of it also and</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:9:54"> in some ways even more sophisticated</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:9:57">and i was just dumb you know it just took me</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:10:0"> four five six times to see the thing then finally</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:10:3"> error is holy this is really an enormous</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:10:6">good idea it is actually</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:10:9"> cosmically important so</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:10:12"> let's make it scale now that's what you</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:10:15"> did basically yeah so once</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:10:18">course once i saw it was</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:10:21">out to</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:10:27">yes</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:10:30"> you know and again again it's</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:10:33"> it's pragmatics that hurts</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:10:36"> the idea like it's the simplest idea</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:10:39">that there is that if you have a computer</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:10:42"> you can do any computation</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:10:45"> you can represent any data structure</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:10:48"> yeah so it should be a complete</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:10:51"> instant</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:10:54"> deduction that oh if i want to make</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:10:57"> a computing system i should just make virtual computers</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:11:0"> because that will allow me</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:11:3"> to define anything else and i have</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:11:6"> a universal way of doing it and people still don't use</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:11:9"> what they call oop today to do that yeah</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:11:12"> they just can't see it</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:11:15">here's something about a computer even today when they're</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:11:18"> a lot smaller that with</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:11:21"> where the pragmatic reality of the</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:11:24"> computer you know contrasted</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:11:27">virtually or what it is semantically</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:11:30"> yeah yeah so what's once you can</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:11:33"> move from pregnant so one of the ways of looking</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:11:36"> at is one of the biggest problems in programming in every</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:11:39"> era and i don't even know what</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:11:42">decade this is for me i've encountered them</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:11:45"> but it's going to be 60 60 years pretty soon</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:11:48"> six years next year</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:11:51"> six decades wow but in every year</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:11:54"> it's the same thing with the same problem</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:11:57">get caught up with the pragmatics</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:12:0"> yeah with the immediate with the immediate</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:12:3">instead of the yeah and the number one</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:12:6">optimization and pragmatics</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:12:9">hat on</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:12:12"> and we can all do it once you put that</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:12:15">on it is almost impossible to design after</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:12:18"> that's right completely incompatible</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:12:21">idea it's very difficult</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:12:24"> to change it it's very difficult to say</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:12:27"> to understand that you did something wrong it's very difficult to</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:12:30"> see that you see that you did something wrong</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:12:33"> so yeah so for me uh</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:12:36"> you know there are a lot of different ways of using a dynamic system</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:12:39"> and it depends on the personality for me</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:12:42"> i like to do</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:12:45"> when i was i</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:12:48"> like to do this idea what's the smallest</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:12:51"> village and i</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:12:54"> just do that from scratch okay even</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:12:57"> in small talk in small talk i wouldn't go in and define a lot</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:13:0">classes or any of that stuff i'd use the</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:13:3"> the thing and called workspace which</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:13:6"> had grass space yeah in it</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:13:9"> and i would use a rebel with</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:13:12">i say like a rebel but with asteroids</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:13:15"> because you know in a rebel you're like working</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:13:18"> in one line but in a workspace you have the whole thing yeah yeah</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:13:21">you can have many many things in there and</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:13:24"> it has its own uh address space</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:13:27">so what i would do is just do</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:13:30"> a complete system the smallest thing</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:13:33"> that's a village and everything i mean i would do the</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:13:36"> loop i do the user interface i do every little thing the</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:13:39">could do trying to get</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:13:42"> into my head what the</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:13:45"> uh primary focus of the design</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:13:48">because the important thing about what</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:13:51"> what oop is at least the oops stuff that we did</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:13:54"> is that it's a module</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:13:57"> system for us encapsulation</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:14:0">percent yeah yeah</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:14:3"> yeah it's not there uh you know</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:14:6"> occasionally you might have to fall back and define something like a data</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:14:9"> structure but and when you</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:14:12"> do that you're actually recording danger</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:14:15"> basically it's a module system and the problem with</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:14:18">system is it doesn't tell you what modules</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:14:21">hould come up with right the module</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:14:24"> system just gives you a way of protecting one set of things from</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:14:28"> another</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:14:31"></subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:14:34"></subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:14:37"></subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:14:40">the whole front part of it is how to think</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:14:42"> in terms of modules and what</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:14:45"> to do in his his thesis program which</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:14:48"> he wrote in fortran was a thing that attempted</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:14:51"> to find you the</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:14:54"> best set of modules out of a complex</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:14:57">set of constraints still a good idea yeah yeah</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:15:0"> but basically and to me that's getting</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:15:3"> the meaning of the thing down so to</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:15:6"> me meetings dominate and then you have</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:15:9"> this interesting thing in</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:15:12"> most programming languages today</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:15:15"> is there's nothing that because of this</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:15:18"> fact that you can use in directions</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:15:21"> that you can have a set of meanings</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:15:24"> and they might include some tests</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:15:27"> but if you think of the uh</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:15:30"> yeah suppose it's just something like sorting yeah</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:15:33"> and so</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:15:36"> the you know the the meaning</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:15:39"> for sorting is that the</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:15:42"> output is a permutation of the input yeah</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:15:45"> that obeys some some relationship</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:15:48"> and prolog will even uh</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:15:51"> sort for you just on that basis</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:15:54"> does it really does it the hard way but</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:15:57"> it it gives you the and of course</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:16:0">permutation is not easy thing to describe</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:16:3"> it's a trickier kind of</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:16:6"> thing but uh but there are 50</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:16:9"> known ways to sort oh sort yeah</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:16:12"> and they all have different uh</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:16:15"> pragmatic ranges</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:16:18">and they have different conditions and so you can imagine</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:16:21">if you're going to do a sorting thing you have something that's</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:16:24"> going to protect the meaning</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:16:27">so you can grind let it grind if you want</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:16:30"> yeah yeah or it could be a really simple sorting</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:16:33">program that you're sure really does sort</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:16:36"> yeah maybe or maybe we combined with tests</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:16:39">because both of these things but you keep that over on</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:16:42"> the side and then on the on the right hand side of the page</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:16:45"> you write down your 50 sorting routines</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:16:48"> and you head them with the conditions</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:16:51">under</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:16:54"> which they should be invoked so</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:16:57"> they look this is just what we did when we were writing macros</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:17:0">force that's right basically</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:17:3">inputs oh this is an enormous</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:17:6"> array so uh</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:17:9"> i better not do a bubble sort here</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:17:12"> or one of the side conditions</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:17:15"> here is uh</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:17:18"> this uh this</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:17:21"> system has to be uh</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:17:24"> easily updatable</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:17:27"> so you might want to use a b tree</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:17:30"> right you know you don't want to use a hard</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:17:33"> array you might be better off going to a b tree</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:17:36"> which gives you incremental updating</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:17:39"> on the thing and still gives you pretty fast sorting</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:17:42"> yeah yeah of course small talk has any number of</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:17:45"> these yes different uh kinds of things</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:17:48">and then your module</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:17:51"> is which is called sort</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:17:54"> is the thing that</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:17:57">done the cad sim part</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:18:0">fab part</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:18:3"> is all the all these</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:18:6">routines and the rules should be you should be able</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:18:9"> to turn off any and all of the optimizations in any part</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:18:12"> of the system and just have the system slow down</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:18:15"> that's right but still working if and</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:18:18">that isn't true then you've done</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:18:21"> a bad design period</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:18:24">that's simple yeah you're just playing at being an</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:18:27"> engineer yeah in computing or you're just</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:18:30"> flying at being a programmer even</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:18:33"> yeah but going to to the last question</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:18:36"> so what what would you tell to a programmer</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:18:39"> today to you know</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:18:42">are working what can we</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:18:45"> do you know a tiny people can we</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:18:48"> do something or not i mean</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:18:51">because as you've mentioned many times complexity</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:18:54"> currently in in our you know development software right now</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:18:57">is so complex uh you know working</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:19:0"> doing web application is so much</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:19:3"> difficult today that doing applications like</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:19:6"> 20 years ago yeah but so okay it's in</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:19:9"> some cases you're just not</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:19:12"> going to beat the system yeah</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:19:15"> that's that's some cases just that because</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:19:18"> the the what's imposed</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:19:21"> on you is just too much however</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:19:24"> like suppose you are doing web stuff yeah</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:19:27"> uh so the</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:19:30"> the first thing to notice is that</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:19:33"> underneath javascript</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:19:36"> is a dynamic</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:19:39"> language subset of javascript</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:19:45">can be used as a real</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:19:48"> target from uh</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:19:51"> other language development yeah yeah</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:19:54"> because uh you know there's a</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:19:57"> good garbage collector yeah</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:20:0"> yeah and quite a bit of it</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:20:3">lacks a couple of reflection</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:20:6">but i i advise people</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:20:9">in javascript to do a thing that</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:20:12">ago which was to</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:20:15"> make a preprocessor for javascript</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:20:18">yeah there are</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:20:21"> many there are many things like that today yeah it just parses</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:20:24"> so you feed javascript to it</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:20:27"> and it writes</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:20:30"> things in a way that uh what you do</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:20:33"> is reflective because it adds</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:20:36"> that stuff in there that's right okay okay</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:20:39"> so the basic idea is that for almost any</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:20:42"> programming language uh</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:20:45"> the chances that it's going to really fit what you need is</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:20:48"> low and the whole point we do</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:20:51">should be open and with all the source</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:20:54"> code available like small talk that helps</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:20:57"> that helps a lot yeah i'm sorry sorry sorry</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:21:0"> to interrupt you yeah but in</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:21:3"> but you know small talk i don't advocate small talk today</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:21:6"> because it was the world's greatest thing</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:21:9"> really in the 70s but</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:21:12"> uh you know what's</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:21:15">mall talk today is how well it compares</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:21:18"> with more modern things</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:21:21"> but that's because the more modern things are not very good</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:21:24"> small talk is not</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:21:27"> what i would use if i was going to do</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:21:30"> a major project today i would</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:21:33"> make i would do what we did you know the other thing about</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:21:36"> that community back then is uh it didn't bother</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:21:39"> us to do major tools yeah that's right sometimes</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:21:42">our part of our skill set so yes something that</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:21:45"> today we're still difficult it's like</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:21:48">we build tools for all the other that's right</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:21:51"> for other people but not for us uh</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:21:54">it's that but it's also just people not learning their</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:21:57"> field yeah most people</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:22:0"> are are happy to get paid for doing x</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:22:3"> yeah and uh that's not very professional</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:22:6"> so if you're professional you learn</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:22:9">field and our our field</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:22:12"> is primarily</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:22:15"> there because software</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:22:18"> was invented so we didn't</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:22:21"> have to put up with a fixed set of</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:22:24"> facilities from hardware yeah let's think</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:22:27"> about what that means it means that if you have software</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:22:30"> you should never have to put up a fixed</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:22:33"> set of anything well if you're</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:22:36"> just treating uh</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:22:39">you're treating really badly design software</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:22:42"> most of the time as though it's some sort of machine</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:22:45"> that you can't do anything with</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:22:48"> so this indirection principle yeah</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:22:51"> so i i suggest just being subversive</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:22:54">you basically</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:22:57"> you start working on</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:23:0"> a much better way</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:23:3"> of doing little parts of things</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:23:6"> and at some point you can</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:23:9"> uh see if you can attract more</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:23:12"> people to doing this you gotta</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:23:15"> you know you you do it over lunch with</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:23:18"> beer you gradually</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:23:21"> but but before you do that</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:23:24"> it helps you know the first ones you do</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:23:27"> you're not going to want to use as tools</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:23:30">yeah but you have to get started</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:23:33"> and if you are going to try and</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:23:36"> get around the problem that we have today</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:23:39"> then you're going to have to be a lot more skilled</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:23:42"> than most programmers are</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:23:45">yeah so i</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:23:48"> like i said i was uh</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:23:51"> kind of a standard program because i was used</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:23:54"> programming to work my way through college so i didn't think of it</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:23:57"> as a central thing at all</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:24:0"> i was i had a got a math degree in a biology</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:24:3">and i programmed uh</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:24:6"> to pay my tuition yeah but when i when</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:24:9"> i got into grad school i was in this research</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:24:12"> community that was really serious</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:24:15"> about big things</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:24:18"> and so but they also gave</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:24:21"> the grad students a lot of leeway</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:24:24"> so i had the time</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:24:27"> and the freedom and the</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:24:30"> resources there to just</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:24:33"> learn a whole bunch of things that if i'd</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:24:36"> been more of a professional earlier on i would</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:24:39">idn't know how to do a language i didn't know how to do an operating</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:24:42"> system i didn't know how to do a</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:24:45"> system even okay doing</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:24:48"> programs and uh you know and</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:24:51"> but a couple of years later</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:24:54"> uh i was more</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:24:57"> skilled on this and i understood</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:25:0">process of</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:25:3"> because that graduate school</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:25:6">arpa</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:25:9">did not require</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:25:12"> people to do individual</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:25:15"> theses although usually</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:25:18">ou did but usually</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:25:21"> they allow you they gave you the freedom to</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:25:24"> do whatever you thought it was it was in a</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:25:27"> big context and so the uh</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:25:30"> you could work on big problems and</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:25:33"> you know write up the first two</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:25:36">a big problem if that was good</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:25:39"> they'd give you a phd if you worked on smaller problems</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:25:42">they wanted you to finish something in two years</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:25:45"> but they didn't care what</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:25:48"> they wanted was two years of world-class</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:25:51"> work to get to give out a phd and</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:25:54"> you didn't have to write little papers</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:25:57"> with your professor's name on them or any of that stuff</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:26:0">okay they didn't want you to write papers</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:26:3"> well completely different to what</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:26:6">oday what they want you to do is to write a thesis</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:26:9"> right that's the whole reason</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:26:12">grad school it's not to write papers that's right</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:26:15"> they want you to do</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:26:18"> uh world-class stuff for two</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:26:21">row and write it up and out you go</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:26:24"> so i was in grad school for two and a half</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:26:27">years and uh</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:26:30"> and i wasn't i was not</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:26:33"> nearly the fastest fastest one out</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:26:36"> during my year uh in that community</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:26:39"> was john warnock who</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:26:42"> is famous for doing adobe oh</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:26:45"> okay but john was a uh</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:26:48"> was a staff program he had a math</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:26:51"> degree had a master's in math and he</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:26:54">working had a wife and a kid and he was working as a</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:26:57"> staff programmer for the university</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:27:0"> and one of the kids</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:27:3"> on the grads uh grad school</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:27:6"> students went to him and asked them a question and</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:27:9"> john saw a big answer to it that happened</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:27:12"> to be the first really good way to do continuous</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:27:15"> tone 3d graphics</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:27:18"> he was the inventor of at that time</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:27:21"> of that and so his</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:27:24"> he was a grad student less than six months</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:27:27"> and his thesis</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:27:30"> was actually 16 pages of text</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:27:33"> and nine pages of pictures</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:27:36"> bingo out he went</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:27:39"> and falcon is a multi-millionaire because of adobe</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:27:42">that</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:27:45"> uh so that was a</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:27:48"> good way of doing things back then because it it</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:27:51"> emphasized not what you're doing</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:27:54">school school was basically</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:27:57"> something that was a support system for</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:28:0"> doing the kinds of things you were going to do after school</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:28:3"> that was the way they thought of it and um</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:28:6"> so the so the main thing about it is</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:28:9"> uh there was a lot of scrambling but there was</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:28:12"> not a lot of competition yeah that's right because</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:28:15"> these are grants for were for entire</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:28:18">departments and so the professors weren't competing</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:28:21">the professors didn't have to worry about tenure</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:28:24"> graduate students weren't competing</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:28:27">was a completely different environment</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:28:30"> today but i like i like what you said that uh</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:28:33">should be subversive to</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:28:36">that's what that's what software</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:28:39"> is that's right that's right that's science</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:28:42">the big problem with it is bad software is subversive</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:28:45"> in really terrible ways</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:28:48"> like the like the pollution</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:28:51"> that i did and yeah yeah so</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:28:54"> if you think about it uh you know in medicine</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:28:57">you can you're allowed to put on a band-aid</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:29:0"> without a doctor's uh</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:29:3"> degree but not allowed</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:29:6"> to do a hard operation without</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:29:9"> being certified and nothing like that exists in software</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:29:12"> and so forth yeah yeah yeah and and if when you get</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:29:15">out of of college in in medicine you have to</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:29:18">stay like four years in</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:29:21">stuff you have to</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:29:24"> learn yeah yeah and so</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:29:27"> uh so to go to a serious</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:29:30"> subject it's if you know if you know about</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:29:33"> the boeing 737 max</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:29:36"> yeah yeah yeah so my one of</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:29:39">is a pilot and he used to to pilot</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:29:42"> that one so yeah so there you have</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:29:45"> an artificial intelligence that knows nothing</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:29:48">doing and</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:29:51"> uh it was allowed to be made</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:29:54"> right we know there are people on board</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:29:57"> it doesn't know anything about flying</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:30:0">because if you're at an altitude of a couple hundred feet</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:30:3"> you don't correct for a stall by diving</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:30:6">the plane at the ground that's right every pilot</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:30:9"> so so uh</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:30:12"> boeing allowed people to</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:30:15"> make a technological device</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:30:18"> that uh should be</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:30:21"> called in artificial intelligence</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:30:24"> because it does things that humans do</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:30:27"> and uh but it has no</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:30:30">certification the people would</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:30:33"> have no certification and so</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:30:36"> none of none of that is being</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:30:39">seriously in medicine the number</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:30:42"> the first thing in the hippocratic oath</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:30:45"> for doctors says above</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:30:48"> all do no harm that's right that's right yeah</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:30:51">ave that those kind of things no such thing</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:30:54"> no no and the equivalent in engineering</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:30:57"> is the bridge must not fall</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:31:0"> the plane must not crash</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:31:3">and engineering is now starting to violate that</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:31:6"> yeah they let that plane</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:31:9">there's no way you should ever let a plane</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:31:12">right and so</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:31:15"> what's happening is this pop culture</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:31:18"> amateur and</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:31:21"> i should i i like the term amateur because</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:31:24">lover okay</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:31:27"> but basically people who are not skilled enough</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:31:30"> for the responsibilities they have</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:31:33"> are and may not</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:31:36"> realize it may not have the faintest</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:31:39"> idea they may think that's right safety bug one</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:31:42"> bubble sort program they know how to program</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:31:45"> and they're being hired right</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:31:48">and writing gazillions</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:31:51"> of terrible code much of which is going</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:31:54"> to be is almost impossible</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:31:57"> to deal with you know so i i say</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:32:0"> well this is like a big fire</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:32:3">so in a big fire you have to decide what parts you're</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:32:6"> going to just learn let burn out</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:32:9"> and other parts you have to isolate by driving</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:32:12"> okay through it and so forth and</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:32:15">think about what software is it's exactly the same</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:32:18"> idea right you have to</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:32:21"> uh the</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:32:24"> much of the stuff look</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:32:27"> just to retreat back to something that should never have</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:32:30">happen is the way the web and the web</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:32:33">was done i was i was going to ask</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:32:36">question because there is one number one</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:32:39"> the number one telling thing to me is</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:32:42"> virtually no student i've met in</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:32:45"> undergraduate or graduate school at ucla</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:32:48"> can tell me what's wrong with the web</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:32:51"> in the web browser</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:32:54"> that means uh the education</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:32:57">is completely failed yeah because</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:33:0"> they only teach you what we use right now and</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:33:3"> know what used to be or the principles or the problems</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:33:6"> full circle to where we started which is</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:33:9">people are projecting their beliefs on the world</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:33:12"> like one of the most pernicious beliefs in computing</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:33:15"> is uh simple</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:33:18"> darwinism yeah we must</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:33:21"> have the best stuff in the</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:33:27">and i used to give lots of talks until i gave up</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:33:30">showing stuff from the past that's infinitely better than the</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:33:33"> stuff today no because they think darwinism</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:33:36">just fits</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:33:39"> yeah that's right if you have a stupid environment</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:33:42"> you're going to wind up with with a</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:33:45">stupid result of evolution and that's what</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:33:48"> we've got remember the</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:33:51"> really important thing is that</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:33:54"> people were probably as clever from</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:33:57">the iq standpoint 100 000 years ago</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:34:0"> as they are today yeah right</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:34:3"> but uh the</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:34:6"> so uh ignorance resembles</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:34:12">you can be clever as hell but if you don't know anything</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:34:15"> you might not be clever enough to</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:34:18">around that and liam my grandfather</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:34:21"> my grandfather used to say that it is worse an ignorant</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:34:24"> person that a dumb person because</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:34:27">is ignorant doesn't know it</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:34:30"> and that makes more more harm than</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:34:33"> somebody that yeah yeah if you have a smart</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:34:36">hey know it and they don't yeah so</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:34:39"> and that's basically i think computing attracts</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:34:42"> that kind of personality there</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:34:45"> used to be and also it attracts a personality</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:34:48"> that tends not to like humans very much</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:34:51"> they're more common</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:34:54"> well i think it's because uh</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:34:57"> you know many people in computing uh</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:35:0"> have asperger's i have a bit myself</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:35:3">and it's comforting to deal with machinery</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:35:6"> yeah yeah because you don't have to negotiate</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:35:9">with it yeah that's right that's right and</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:35:12"> it doesn't have all of these you don't have to be polite</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:35:15"> yeah yeah uh you don't have to try and</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:35:18">figure out what the the other person</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:35:21"> is thinking about you don't have to do all of these things yeah</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:35:24"> yeah and so the thing that saved me</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:35:27"> was doing theater whereas</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:35:30"> theater is the perfect thing for</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:35:33"> a person who is uncomfortable around</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:35:36">people because you have</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:35:39"> to because it's theater is basically the</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:35:42"> an anthropological way of getting at the anthropology</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:35:45"> of humanity</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:35:48">interesting yeah because</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:35:51">understand why theater can work</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:35:54"> if you think about what it is and think about</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:35:57"> why people can wind up crying</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:36:0"> in a completely artificial situation yeah</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:36:3"> okay and how to arrange things</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:36:6">happens you understand a lot</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:36:9">if you're still uncomfortable with them</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:36:12"> but you understand more about what's going on</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:36:15"> and you also have the understanding</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:36:18">needed to design a decent user interface</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:36:21"> if you don't have that</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:36:24"> uh the user interfaces you'll make are hopeless</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:36:27"> yeah and you'll retreat into</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:36:30">world of simple machinery</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:36:33">simple yeah</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:36:36"> so it's very possible to for people to</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:36:39"> create these bubbles that they</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:36:42"> live in that really have nothing to do certainly</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:36:45"> if you look at uh the software i've looked</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:36:48"> at it's too much software to make a blanket statement</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:36:51">world now but</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:36:54"> the software that i've looked at in</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:36:57"> mainly in very large companies and in</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:37:0">the government uh indicates</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:37:3"> that hardly anybody</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:37:6"> who is good at design was ever in the</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:37:9">process because the</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:37:12"> objective is to get things done quickly</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:37:15"> on time and in budget not</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:37:18"> worry about the future and that's where we get all the trash</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:37:21"> in the pacific ocean from that's right it's all about</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:37:24"> getting the bottle of water to you quickly</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:37:27">cheaply and who cares where the bottle</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:37:30">afterwards that's right that's right that's basically</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:37:33"> why i use that analogy to start off</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:37:36"> my talk that it's it works very well</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:37:39"> uh unfortunately software is much more invisible</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:37:42"> than the trash in the pacific ocean</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:37:45"> because you can't take pictures</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:37:48"> of</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:37:51"> you know gazillions of terabytes</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:37:54"> of crap</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:37:57"> you can get an idea by looking at</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:38:0"> a company that should be doing a lot better</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:38:3"> uh like google</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:38:6"> and ask the question</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:38:9">how is it possible that when you retrieve something</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:38:12">oogle that it's not showing</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:38:15">summaries of those web</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:38:18">just picking random</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:38:21"> stuff out of the web pages but it has to index the</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:38:24"> web pages to be able to do the retrieval at all</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:38:27"> so why aren't they indexing the retr uh the web</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:38:30"> pages are about</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:38:33"> and putting that in there is meta information</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:38:36">why after all of these year now of course i've asked</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:38:39"> my friends at google many times</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:38:42"> you guys are doing all of this stuff you</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:38:45">got ai chips to do this and</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:38:48">but you can't do the most elementary thing</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:38:51"> in your primary product</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:38:54"> to make it any better than it was uh 25</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:38:57">years ago right so</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:39:0"> what's the</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:39:3"></subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:39:6"></subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:39:9"> problem</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:39:12"> can you hear me</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:39:24">hello</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:39:27"> hello can't hear you</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:39:36">see i was complaining about</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:39:39"> the web and it took</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:39:51">revenge</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:39:54"> hello hernan</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:39:57"> yes can you hear me now yes</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:40:0"> yes no i don't know what happened something was wrong</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:40:3">with my well i was i was complaining about the web</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:40:6"> and it took revenge yeah</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:40:9"> so what i i was asking you what did i say</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:40:12"> when you told them that when you asked them that well</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:40:15"> you know if i i haven't tried it on</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:40:18">recently but i used to every couple of months i'd send</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:40:21">norvig an email he's a good guy</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:40:24">charge of all this stuff and well</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:40:27"> he went to the basically the</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:40:30"> the one of the ways of</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:40:33"> looking at it and you could ask them why</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:40:36">the things that really did happen</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:40:39"> and i think it has to do with</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:40:42"> how school once you start valuing</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:40:45"> a's in school</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:40:48">pro process</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:40:51"> that makes the problems progressively easier</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:40:54"> right because people complain</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:40:57"> if they don't get an a if they're valuable that's right</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:41:0"> the only goal for them is that yeah</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:41:3"> then you have to go to easier and easier problems rather than</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:41:6"> uh and so i think what</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:41:9"> happened is certainly with uh</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:41:12"> ai which is actually a hard problem</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:41:15"> what they did was to substitute uh</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:41:18"> various forms of machine learning</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:41:21"> and uh you know perceptron</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:41:24"> type stuff which is which</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:41:27">you know one part of our</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:41:30"> brain for a fair amount of our brain does a lot</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:41:33"> of that but so do so do pigeons</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:41:36"> yeah they decided to uh</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:41:39"> and the nice for them the nice thing is</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:41:42">cohonen years ago showed that</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:41:45"> certain forms of matrix algebra</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:41:48"> were isomorphic to simple perceptrons</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:41:51"> and all of a sudden that meant so</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:41:54"> that wasn't always known okay</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:41:57"> was a guy tubo</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:42:0"> i don't know yeah well he was the guy who did that</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:42:3"> and uh it put a mathematical</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:42:6"> basis on it</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:42:9"> and it suddenly allowed academics to write</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:42:12"> papers with math in them</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:42:15">and since they were supposed to write papers</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:42:18"> uh all of a sudden</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:42:21"> academic ai shifted</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:42:24"> abruptly yeah from just</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:42:27"> just machine learning and giving up what</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:42:30"> is now called general ai yeah yeah</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:42:33"> this is like i have to call object-oriented</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:42:36"> programming dynamic object going to program</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:42:39">now</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:42:42">because the term i</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:42:45">away from me and the same thing</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:42:48"> as the term that mccarthy made up</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:42:51"> which was you know in which machine learning</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:42:54"> was a tiny tiny part that's right that's right</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:42:57"> take it away from him and</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:43:0"> change and change it change the meaning of the world yeah</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:43:3"> and so uh a friend of a friend of mine</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:43:6"> actually wrote a paper somewhere about this</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:43:9"> thing and he called it colonization</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:43:12">when something is</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:43:15"> successful everybody wants in on it</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:43:18"> and so the they get it by colonizing</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:43:21"> the term</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:43:24">in american</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:43:27"> uh k-12</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:43:30"> uh mathematics yeah</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:43:33"> uh they tried to reform it</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:43:36"> yeah they got so much pushback that</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:43:39">solved the problem by renaming arithmetic mathematics</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:43:45">that was the solution mathematics in school</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:43:48">have</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:43:51"> to realize this is the world that we live in the pop culture that</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:43:54">in yeah that's right it's all about labels</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:43:57"> it's about designer jeans</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:44:0"> buying a t-shirt with a label</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:44:3">got one right on on you right now there you go</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:44:6">that gives</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:44:9"> you the illusion that you understand what i mean</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:44:12"> yeah of course gives</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:44:15"> other people the illusion</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:44:18">thank you thank you for you know make</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:44:21"> me feel like that think</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:44:24"> about it do you know what i really meant well i</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:44:27"> think so but i'm not sure you know</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:44:30"> i'm on email so</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:44:33"> i i i know the history i i</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:44:36">'m not sure if i understand exactly</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:44:39"> what you meant i've gotten very few emails</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:44:42"> about this because people love these</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:44:45">slogans yeah this is why people love</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:44:48"> organized religion because</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:44:51"> the slogan sounds good yeah</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:44:54"> yeah but you have to realize the slogan is this the</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:44:57">can tell that's right that's right</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:45:0">have the context so it's the meaning</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:45:3">yeah and</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:45:6"> so well</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:45:9"> no the meaning can be what they want it to be</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:45:12"> oh yeah that's that's better yeah that's the way there is</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:45:15"> a university building in padelbourne germany</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:45:18"> yeah that has your phrase in there yeah</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:45:21"> building and when i went they asked me to come</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:45:24"> celebrate it and i asked the audience whether they</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:45:27"> knew what i meant</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:45:30"> so i showed them some of the variations</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:45:33"> okay okay and it's like like point of</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:45:36">view is worth 80 iq points which is another favorite</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:45:39"> one it's on t-shirts and yeah but</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:45:42"> i i didn't say whether the sign was plus or minus</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:45:45">good point</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:45:48"> and having a weak point</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:45:51">view uh makes you</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:45:54"> appear less smart than you actually are</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:45:57">and the same thing with the best way to predict the future is to</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:46:0"> invent it doesn't say anything about uh</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:46:3"> whether it's a good future</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:46:6">see people inventing the future take a look at washington</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:46:9"> and wall street</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:46:21">yeah</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:46:24"> so yeah this is what i'm saying these</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:46:27"> slogans i started making up see i think in terms</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:46:30">tell by the fact that i talk</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:46:33">and talk and the reason is that i'm basically</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:46:36"> a book guy i don't think</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:46:39"> in terms of sentences and i don't think in terms of slogans</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:46:42"> but i started making up these slogans when</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:46:45"> at xerox when when</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:46:48"> i realized the executives couldn't deal with threesome with this</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:46:51"> slogan and what they needed was</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:46:54"> something that sounded good to them</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:46:57">a good way to</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:47:0"> make them think what you wanted it's like</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:47:3"> when i give a talk uh</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:47:6"> the talk is just a commercial</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:47:9"> for doing a lot of work</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:47:12"> and most people uh try to use the talk as</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:47:15">ource of knowledge and it can't be</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:47:18"> look at the world that we live in this world was not made</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:47:21">oral discourse this world was made by</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:47:24"> thousands and thousands of these things</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:47:27"> yeah these books that's right not bad from what</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:47:30"> we're doing right now so if if this</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:47:33"> session you know had</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:47:36"> help us to understand</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:47:39"> a little bit more of what is going on and i think the number</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:47:42"> one thing to take from any talk of mine is wow whatever</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:47:45">thinking might not be right that's right</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:47:48"> yeah</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:47:51">that's right you have to doubt about</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:47:54">o get you know</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:47:57">so i think make</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:48:0"> the mistake of thinking that i know the answers yeah</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:48:3"> don't but i am a professional thinker</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:48:6"> so what i do know how to do is to</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:48:9">my own thinking yeah so most people</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:48:12"> don't do that alan i you know</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:48:15"> we have to uh you know the time</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:48:18"> is up uh i</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:48:21"> you know i would love to be like talking</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:48:24"> for more like i don't know 20 hours 40</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:48:27"> hours all the time you could give us but uh</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:48:30">this time we have to to end and</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:48:33"> i think the last thing the last thing that you said is</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:48:36"> how we can you know wrap up uh</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:48:39">thing um i really appreciate</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:48:42"> your talk and it was amazing for me a pleasure</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:48:45"> to be able to talk to you personally i i wanted</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:48:48"> to go to london this year as i told you in the email</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:48:51">to the conference of the history programming languages sadly</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:48:54"> it wasn't done because of</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:48:57"> the covet but anyway um i think everybody</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:49:0"> enjoyed your talk and everything</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:49:3">us today and you told us today</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:49:6"> and i hope to see you someday and</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:49:9"> for everybody to keep enjoying</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:49:12">what you think london is a great place to live</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:49:15"> oh well i haven't i've been out</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:49:18"> of my flat here since the last week</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:49:21">february whoa</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:49:24"> because yeah yeah</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:49:27"> they have one they have one of the worst death rates</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:49:30"> uh in the world here in the uk so</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:49:33"> and i'm a former biologist so</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:49:36">better be careful we want you to leave more</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:49:39"> i am my wife and i</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:49:42"> are casual we're really here okay</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:49:45"> okay alan thank you very much i i</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:49:48">don't know if you want to finish saying something a small</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:49:51">than enough okay</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:49:54"> it's been it's been a tremendous pleasure thank</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:49:57"> you thank you very much bye bye</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:50:0"> okay thank you alan</subtitle>
+<subtitle id="2:50:3"> [Music]</subtitle>