View source for Alan Kay Interview by Dave Marvit (2013)

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<subtitle id="0:0:12">are there important</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:0:15"> problems for  technology to solve you</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:0:18">within the scope of technology the ambit  of technological solution and if</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:0:21"> so what  well</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:0:24"> I think the you</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:0:27"> know if you take  the route of technology technique</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:0:30"> it  really means things that humans</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:0:33"> make so  it's a much</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:0:36"> larger word than the way we  use it today and</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:0:39"> the Latin root was ours  from which arts you</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:0:42"> know the word the  arts</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:0:45"> didn't mean the Fine Arts back</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:0:48"> then  but they meant the art of building</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:0:51"> this  and that and the art of cooking and also</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:0:54">the art of dancing and the art of music  and stuff but basically</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:0:57"> the term the  arts have gotten kind of co-opted</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:1:0"> by the  Fine Arts in our era</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:1:3"> so if you take a  look at the the</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:1:6"> synergies between human  beings and their creations</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:1:9"> you know  they're</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:1:12"> more I think would be very  difficult to define</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:1:15"> a human being  without looking at either</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:1:18"> physical or  ideational</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:1:21"> artifacts</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:1:24"> because we actually  create language</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:1:27"> out of a propensity  towards</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:1:30"> language as we're growing up and  that language has a lot</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:1:33"> of commitments  and meanings</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:1:36"> to what the meaning of the  culture is so</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:1:39"> so one way to</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:1:42"> you could  you could imagine a</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:1:45"> degree in technology  that was different than a degree in  engineering</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:1:48"> that just included  engineering is one</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:1:51"> part of it  that</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:1:54"> could actually deal much more with  the</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:1:57"> whole system so you</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:2:0"> know I argued  with the young kid there</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:2:3"> the  eye-tracking kid because he had started</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:2:6">  off with this idea which i think is a</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:2:9">  corporate mantra that</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:2:12"> you know the  future</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:2:15"> is going to be humans</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:2:18"> fitting - I  mean machines fitting to humans</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:2:21"> rather  than humans fitting to machines and it I</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:2:24">  don't think that that split actually</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:2:27"> can  exist there's no question</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:2:30"> but that the  machines we use change us</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:2:33"> well they  don't change us we</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:2:36"> change us machines  are just doing things and</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:2:39"> it's it's our</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:2:42">interpretations of the things that  change that</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:2:45"> change jeans are just  catalyst</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:2:48"> they're that's because you know</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:2:51">  we have these cause and effect things</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:2:54">  it's like you insulted</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:2:57"> me and</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:3:0"> you know  unless unless you actually poke</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:3:3"> your  fingers in my eye all you're doing is  creating</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:3:6"> vibrations in the air and every</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:3:9">other every part of the insult is  something that I have</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:3:12"> to interpret  myself</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:3:15"> and react to right</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:3:18"> so if people  were actually dealing with</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:3:21">actually going on you couldn't be  insulted</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:3:24"> unless you chose to be so</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:3:27"> so  what I asked you was it</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:3:30"> was only  response was reasonable and you broaden  the</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:3:33"> definition of technology has  typically used to encompass</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:3:36"> an enormous  scope you're just which is cool and</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:3:39">we can sort of put that into question  and say okay given the enormous scope  and</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:3:42"> then we're given the smaller scope  but I</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:3:45">corporate hat a little bit here and  trying</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:3:48"> to think of okay we have</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:3:51"> this  muscle this techno developmental</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:3:54"> muscle  at a large corporation and it</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:3:57"> would be  good to put it to use to good</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:4:0"> use if  that's even possible so</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:4:3">the frame us a framework in which I was  asking the question</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:4:6">  I think the well let</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:4:9"> me be elliptical  again but if you go</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:4:12"> back to this</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:4:15">  interesting phenomenon that</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:4:18"> if you look  at</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:4:21"> the daily use of</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:4:24"> people with say  computers of whatever</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:4:27"> whatever kind</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:4:30"> it's  hard to find any actual new</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:4:33"> any  technology in there that is newer</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:4:36"> than  thirty years old as</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:4:39"> far as the  foundational ideas</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:4:42"> so the whole idea of</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:4:45">  graphical user interfaces is came</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:4:48"> from  the 60s and the one we happen to use</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:4:51">  today was invented at Parc but it wasn't  invented</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:4:54"> in isolation of previous ones  the mouth</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:4:57"> both the mouse and the tablet  were invented in</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:5:0"> 1964 most people don't  realize that the</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:5:3"> ARPANET started working  in 1969</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:5:6"> and it just morphed into</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:5:9"> the  Internet the ethernet was</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:5:12"> invented at  Xerox PARC around 1973</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:5:15"> object-oriented</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:5:18">programming yeah so if you if you go  down the line then</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:5:21"> as I pointed out that  if you take a</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:5:24"> look at what people are  doing on the</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:5:27"> on the web what I see is  mainly better-looking</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:5:30"> graphics than we  could do 50 years</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:5:33"> ago but what</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:5:36"> I don't  see is angle Bart's ideas</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:5:39"> so Engelbart  routinely</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:5:42"> shared screens</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:5:45"> in real time  for the entire work</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:5:48"> and so  you know it</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:5:51"> was an in an integral part  of the system</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:5:54"> it wasn't an app that you  use it was actually</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:5:57">and if you're gonna work with somebody  and often</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:6:0"> you could see the other person  if they're</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:6:3"> more than two people  collaborating their</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:6:6"> initials would show  up on the cursor so you</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:6:9">they're pointing at and this is all in  the 60s and</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:6:12"> there's nothing about it is  hidden so</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:6:15"> what I see is something much  more like a pop</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:6:18"> culture today where  people</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:6:21"> are completely indifferent to</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:6:24"> the  past and it's</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:6:27"> not that everything in the  past was good but it's real</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:6:30">ose the stuff that was better than the  idea</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:6:33"> like Engelbart was smarter than  most people today and</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:6:36"> so they can have  all the pleasures</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:6:39"> they want inventing  something and having</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:6:42"> that egocentric  satisfaction</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:6:45"> that I did this but  basically it's</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:6:48"> just a form of pollution  because</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:6:51">talking about something that's just for  a single person's</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:6:54"> pleasure we're talking  about something that which everything is  done</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:6:57"> is Rama file to two billion</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:7:0"> people  now and that you just can't allow</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:7:3"> people  who you</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:7:6"> know whether willfully or</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:7:9">unconsciously</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:7:12"> are you know just  polluting</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:7:15"> the system because they don't  know any better  yeah</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:7:21">on the other hand we've</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:7:24"> got this paradox  that</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:7:27"> a lot of the</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:7:30"> solutions in the past  that were better than the solutions  today</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:7:33"> are not the solutions that we need</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:7:36">  because the problems are different  well</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:7:39"> no it's even for the same problems  so</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:7:42"> if you talk to the angle bard Ian's  back</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:7:45"> then they knew they were just doing  a version of</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:7:48"> the thing it happened their  version is</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:7:51"> was a better set of thoughts  than the web thoughts</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:7:54"> which were really  crude and almost</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:7:57"> nothing of vision in  them but</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:8:0"> the angle bargains would say  well you know you know don't</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:8:3"> build a  religion about our stuff because we</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:8:6"> have  to do some more qualitative iterations</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:8:9">  because there's</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:8:12"> so much user interface  burden in</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:8:15"> doing this stuff so when we  were doing</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:8:18"> the you</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:8:21"> know the small talk  stuff with</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:8:24"> the GUI and</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:8:27"> children and  desktop publishing and all that stuff</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:8:30">  it's your ex part the</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:8:33"> technologic  technological stuff was</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:8:36"> relatively easy  partly because we had</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:8:39"> some geniuses so  he had this guy Chuck back</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:8:42"> you know  they're all in the wall over there so  Chuck</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:8:45"> Thacker Butler Lampson Metcalf did</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:8:48">  the ethernet I don't know whether stark  Starkweather</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:8:51"> should be in there did the  laser printer so these guys</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:8:54"> are really  incredible</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:8:57"> and we we</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:9:0"> had people besides  me who</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:9:3"> were very well-versed in</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:9:6"> user  interfaces but in fact user</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:9:9"> interface  design is this</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:9:12">because</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:9:15"> it is a design and something  that</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:9:18"> fits it's really hundreds of  experiments and</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:9:21"> almost every experiment  fails</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:9:24"> in one way or another and so the  people who do this</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:9:27"> successfully are have</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:9:30">  tools that allow them to to try ten</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:9:33">  different kinds of things a day and of</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:9:36">  course because the users learn you have</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:9:39">  to get a new batch of users rather</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:9:42"> often  to in order</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:9:45"> to see how users react to  something like this the first time</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:9:48"> out  that's true in the generative side and  also the</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:9:51">you do put out in the world change as a  result of what</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:9:54">game theoretic moving target  yeah and so</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:9:57"> one of the ironies of the</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:10:0">park GUI which has been you know it's  two billion</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:10:3"> people and probably a</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:10:6">  million applications now have been</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:10:9"> done  successfully in it it's</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:10:12"> actually a  bicycle with training wheels</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:10:15">nobody knows the training wheels are on  it and</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:10:18"> the reason is is that I designed  that user interface for children</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:10:21"> and</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:10:24"> one  of the things that was not a training  wheel</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:10:27"> on it was never accepted by</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:10:30"> Apple  and because it wasn't accepted by Apple</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:10:33">  Microsoft never appropriated it and</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:10:36">  because of that gnome didn't you</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:10:39"> look at the way these things trickle  through and</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:10:42"> so that particular idea</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:10:45">  which was</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:10:48"> recognition of some of the  overlap</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:10:51"> between children and adults  never is</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:10:54"> not on any system today except</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:10:57">  except small talk which it always was on</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:11:0">  so what is that idea well the idea was  just that</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:11:3"> it's not really a desktop that</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:11:6">  was Apple's misinterpretation</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:11:9">  even after we explained to them</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:11:12"> not a  desktop it's or</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:11:15"> if you want to think of  it as a desktop there are</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:11:18"> an unlimited  number of them and they really didn't  get</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:11:21"> that in that those a couple of demos</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:11:24">  we showed them and so if you think if  have</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:11:27"> you know what could I do with an  unlimited number of desktops</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:11:30">answer is I can organize  but I</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:11:33"> don't want to be application  centric because an application</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:11:36"> is a  stovepipe what I really want is  something</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:11:39"> where I can get every object  of every</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:11:42"> kind that I need for this  project out</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:11:45"> where I can do things with  them and I</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:11:48"> want that desktop to remember</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:11:51">  their state over time because</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:11:54"> most  people including children have</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:11:57"> three or  four projects they're working on each  day</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:12:0"> and instead what Mac</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:12:3">Windows did is to give you a situation  where you're kind of</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:12:6">and tearing things down and staying  inside of</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:12:9"> applications and not being  able to integrate you</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:12:12"> know in other  words what Apple and and</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:12:15"> Microsoft did  was</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:12:18"> was something that essentially</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:12:21">prevented what today would be called a  mashup</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:12:24"> but you actually want it so if  you think in</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:12:27"> object-oriented terms you  don't have to have applications</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:12:30">didn't have them at Parc you don't have  files</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:12:33"> what you have is an unlimited  number of areas</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:12:36"> which today you could  think of as web pages</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:12:39"> and but you can do  all developmental</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:12:42"> things on and that's  what I was giving my talk in</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:12:45"> first so I  can</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:12:48"> run so the important thing is it's  dynamic I get something</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:12:51"> that's 10 times  as powerful as PowerPoint for</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:12:54"> free and  there's a sorter so I can</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:12:57"> show which  ones are those things that I want and  cool</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:13:0"> and so forth so that was a one</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:13:3"> of  the strongest ideas that we evolved</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:13:6"> at  Parc probably around</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:13:9"> 76 or 77</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:13:12">  onwards never made it still</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:13:15"> would be  useful so that so when I look at the</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:13:18">  interfaces today what I see because</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:13:21"> I  know what it was and what</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:13:24"> it could be I  see first a</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:13:27"> bicycle with training wheels  on</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:13:30"> but people can't see the training  wheels because they don't know</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:13:33"> it's  supposed to be a bike and then the  second</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:13:36"> thing I see after 20 30 years of  it is a</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:13:39"> bicycle with training wheels on  it completely</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:13:42"> encrusted with jewels and  rhinestones</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:13:45"> because it's been decorated</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:13:48">  in a thousand different ways features</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:13:51">have been put on it but it's still got  the fucking training wheels on</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:13:54"> it and so  this is actually the way things</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:13:57"> go  because if people are not willing to  actually</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:14:0"> like Apple did not want to hear</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:14:3">what the theory of that user interface  was even</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:14:6"> after I was there for 12 years  because</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:14:9"> they had expropriated it it was  now their thing</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:14:12"> wasn't the</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:14:15"> you know the  history of it was completely irrelevant  so</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:14:18"> that was when I realized oh this is a  pop culture this</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:14:21"> is the way it doesn't  matter how how good any</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:14:24"> musician was of  the past or anything else the point of a</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:14:27">  pop culture is getting identity through  your own</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:14:30"> actions a feeling of  participation it's not</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:14:33"> the same as  where's Park was anything but a pop</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:14:36">culture Park was all about banding  together in</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:14:39"> a pretty anonymous group of  experts</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:14:42"> to make something grand</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:14:45"> so the  part of the implication of this is</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:14:48"> that  the the intellectual</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:14:51"> ownership which  often brings with it resistance to</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:14:54">  change is is</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:14:57"> it fundamental to corporate  models and if if</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:15:0"> not then how do you  shake it well I</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:15:3"> mean everybody has an  ego so</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:15:6"> the real question any especially  any research</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:15:9"> manager  ass is not does</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:15:12"> this person have an ego  or not that's it's like</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:15:15"> that guy saying  we're gonna have the</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:15:18"> Machine fit to the  person</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:15:21"> so the real real question your  ass you</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:15:24"> always ask is what is the</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:15:27">  general expression of ego that this  person</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:15:29"> exhibits and that the way they</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:15:32">  express is what allows them</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:15:36"> to be</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:15:39"> team  members and stars at the same</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:15:41">because you want to have stars dark  sparkles</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:15:44"> full of stars but the key to  the</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:15:47"> key to park and the arpa community  it came from</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:15:50"> was how it cooperative was  how it was</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:15:53"> able to cooperate was not was</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:15:56">  competitive up to</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:15:59"> a point that was just  good enough to be</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:16:2"> fun was mildly  competitive</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:16:5"> but the truth was is</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:16:8"> that  the 15 or 16 are per projects</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:16:11"> cooperated  they swapped graduate students</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:16:14"> they're  all working in on the same</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:16:17"> vision but  they had different goals and</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:16:20"> this gave a  lot of opportunity for</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:16:23"> argument and this  was a was a community</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:16:26"> that had learned  how to argue that's what I learned</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:16:29"> when  I went to graduate school was for the  first time</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:16:32"> in my life how to actually  argue because</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:16:35"> when I was a kid I</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:16:38">  mistakenly thought that the</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:16:41"> purpose of  an argument was to win it</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:16:44">  and but they you</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:16:47"> know but argument in</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:16:50">the ARPA community was not that's sort  of what you do with debate</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:16:53"> you know it's  sophistry learn</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:16:56"> how to win a debate and  they</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:16:59"> were not interested in that at all  and of course there were a couple of  exceptions</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:17:2"> but I'm talking about  hundreds of people here</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:17:5"> and the purpose  of these arguments was</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:17:8"> to illuminate to  get out</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:17:11"> different perspectives on  something and</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:17:14"> park was a an argument if  you talk</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:17:17"> to anybody who was there we  argued</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:17:20"> incessantly with each other and  it frightened</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:17:23"> Xerox actually because  they misinterpreted</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:17:26"> it yeah taya well</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:17:29">I'm as strife  whereas</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:17:32"> Taylor who was kind of the  genius</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:17:35"> who had been one of the</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:17:38">funders and then was the guy who set up  Xerox</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:17:41"> PARC he was a psychologist like</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:17:44">  the guy who initiated ARPA funding  Licklider</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:17:47"> and Taylor never made</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:17:50"> a  technical decision he trusted his  scientists</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:17:53"> and his job as he saw</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:17:56"> it was  to protect us from Xerox and</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:17:59"> to set up a  climate</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:18:2"> where these lone-wolf he he got</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:18:5">  most of the people at park a lot of</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:18:8">people were what you would call lone  wolves</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:18:11"> he liked that because he didn't  you</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:18:14"> know he wanted people who were  basically not amenable to being</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:18:17"> managed  we needed management he</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:18:20">have a management structure and he  didn't</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:18:23"> but then there's the question of  can</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:18:26"> he set up something so that these  lone wolves will cooperate</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:18:29"> when that's a  good idea and to</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:18:32"> give you an example of  that there's no reason to cooperate on</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:18:35"> a</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:18:38">programming language  pretty much everybody</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:18:41"> at park could  invent and build</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:18:44"> a programming language  or an operating system</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:18:47"> so the idea is  anything goes there</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:18:50"> but if you're gonna  do an alto</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:18:53"> where and</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:18:56"> the the mantra  there was that</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:18:59"> everything that we do had  to be engineered for 100 users</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:19:2"> so we  built a fake pdp-10 that</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:19:5"> had to run a  hundred users as a time sharing system</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:19:8">and when we did the Alto we knew we were  gonna have to build</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:19:11"> a hundred of it and  building a hundred machines</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:19:14"> that in  today's terms would cost about eighty  thousand</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:19:17"> bucks apiece  you need to have cooperation</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:19:20"> and he got  it and</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:19:23"> he didn't have to organize the  cooperation the</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:19:26"> cooperation happened  maybe</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:19:29"> even in a better way than he ever  dreamed although he had picked</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:19:32"> us and  and it happened</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:19:35"> because</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:19:38"> this that and  the other well so one of the things</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:19:41"> was  Taylor set up was</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:19:44"> every single person</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:19:47">  who was at Park has to be totally</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:19:50">enthusiastic about the next person to  come in</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:19:53"> it was a single black ball</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:19:56">and the reason that this</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:19:59"> took forever  because</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:20:2"> you know some people would know  this person  some</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:20:5"> people would only know the  reputation person</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:20:8"> would have to come in  and talk to everybody that would take</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:20:11">  days and it was</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:20:14"> incredibly unwieldy so</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:20:17">  we grumbled however it worked perfectly  because</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:20:20"> there were never any rivalries</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:20:23">  such as you would get when you just</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:20:26">plonk a new person who's really good  that</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:20:29"> was the only kind they wanted there  so</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:20:32"> there's no getting out to swords and  testing</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:20:35"> out any of this stuff everybody  who's completely committed</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:20:38"> to the new  member of the marriage</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:20:41"> before it ever  happened and so so</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:20:44"> by going through the  this enormous overhead</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:20:47"> in the beginning  of the thing it</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:20:50"> paid off many many times  over the decade</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:20:53"> that Park was most  productive Taylor</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:20:56"> had a lot of things  like that so let me</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:20:59">too much your time you should interview  him if I</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:21:2"> would love to actually maybe  the nice thing is that you</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:21:5">Licklider I think was a little bit more  intuitive</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:21:8"> but Taylor was a big fan of  lick</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:21:11"> lighters and so he went</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:21:14"> to town on  how Licklider did his thing and</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:21:17"> applied  this when he was the</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:21:20"> ARPA funder and  here's</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:21:23"> a guy who funded the ARPANET</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:21:26"> and  when Taylor</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:21:29"> came to park and was in</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:21:32"> the  position of setting up this lab of his  own</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:21:35"> he was determined to try</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:21:38">every single one of these things that he  thought was a gem of a</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:21:41"> principle to work  and he was willing to talk</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:21:44">was trying to do it wasn't anything  covert I</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:21:47"> will make a point of that um so  just sort</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:21:50"> of a wrap now maybe you and I  can continue some time down in LA</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:21:53"> if you  were going</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:21:56"> to if I was going to edit  this and tell the guys at Fujitsu</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:21:59"> what  we should do as an institution to  innovate</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:22:2"> more better different effect  well I think first</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:22:5"> the there in Silicon  Valley now</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:22:8">  they should use the Silicon Valley  meanings</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:22:11"> of the word innovate and invent  which</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:22:14"> are I think made up by Regis  McKenna years</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:22:17"> ago but so so innovation</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:22:20">  is taking an idea into the marketplace</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:22:23">  in Silicon Valley terms an</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:22:26"> invention is  what we did at Xerox PARC which</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:22:29"> is  dabbling getting</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:22:32"> much closer to the word  new than news and both</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:22:35"> of them are real</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:22:38">  art forms with real process</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:22:41"> but they  have to get that clear because you  really</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:22:44"> want to know whether you're a lot  of problems and companies is</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:22:47"> the  confusion between those two things or  and</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:22:50"> then they have to decide what</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:22:53"> is the  cost of doing business for each of those</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:22:56">  I'll leave out in an innovation</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:22:59"> here  just focus on invention so</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:23:2"> so years ago</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:23:5">so Lickliter</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:23:8"> had this idea that you  couldn't think of a good goal</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:23:11"> while  you're behind the beltway in Washington</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:23:14">  anybody had the vision and he could say</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:23:17">  it in a sentence it was interactive</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:23:20">  computers as intellectual amplifiers</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:23:23">everybody on the planet pervasively  network worldwide</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:23:26"> that was it and when  everybody</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:23:29"> asked him what he was doing he  was just say that sentence and they'd</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:23:32">say well what about goes well we can't  think about goals here</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:23:35">you gonna operate he says well I'm gonna  I'm gonna fund people</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:23:38"> rather than  projects and</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:23:41"> so find really smart people</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:23:44">  who were interested in this vision and</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:23:47">  so so the Warriors</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:23:50"> said well</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:23:53"> you</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:23:56"> know  this isn't that going to produce a lot</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:23:59">  of failures  I</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:24:2"> think etc</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:24:5"> etcetera he says well we're  playing we're not playing</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:24:8"> golf we're  playing baseball some</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:24:11"> ty Cobbs lifetime  batting average is 367</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:24:14"> so like lawyers  say if we can bat if you look at what</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:24:17">  we're funding if we can bat 350</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:24:20"> on the  whole portfolio</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:24:23"> we will change the  entire</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:24:26"> world so that's what happened and</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:24:29">so the weary er said well what about the  650</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:24:32"> what about the 65 percent of failure</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:24:35">he says why it's the cost of doing  business and research</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:24:38"> this is the number  one thing that companies</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:24:41"> today do not  understand</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:24:44"> they have to put in their  turns because</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:24:47"> the way they think about  things generally they're not</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:24:50"> romantics  the bottom line people</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:24:53"> they're willing  to put a lot of money</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:24:56"> into advertising  which is rather ephemeral</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:24:59"> as far as ROI  but they think they</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:25:2"> understand it and  part of their problems they do not</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:25:5">  understand research and invention and</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:25:8"> so  they want to tighter rein on</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:25:11"> it but in  fact what the old-time funders</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:25:14"> did was  not to confuse responsibility</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:25:17"> in control  Lickliter said</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:25:20"> I'm responsible but I  can't be in control and</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:25:23"> you know we have  to run this</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:25:26"> stochastic lis  like like</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:25:29"> baseball and</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:25:32"> you know if we  get the best players and</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:25:35"> we bet  reasonably over 300</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:25:38"> we're just gonna  nail it and this</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:25:41">reasonable thing because if you look at  the return it's</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:25:44"> astronomical like a good  return</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:25:47"> on investment is like what 15%  17% I</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:25:50"> mean the return on investment from  Xerox</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:25:53"> from the</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:25:56"> laser printer alone at  Xerox PARC was 20,000</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:25:59"> percent was  zillions of</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:26:2"> you know sharks didn't  understand anything except the laser</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:26:5">  printer and it paid for park hundreds of  times</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:26:8"> over and yet Xerox</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:26:11"> is worried  about all the things that weren't going</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:26:14">  well they're forgetting because</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:26:17"> they  have confused making money</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:26:20"> with making  money safely</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:26:23"> and so they</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:26:26">always say well we're in business to  make money and</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:26:29"> I would say no you're not  you just want to make millions</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:26:32"> you know  research people want to make trillions</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:26:35">  because we're creating new paradigms</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:26:38">  here we're creating new industries</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:26:41"> so  that industry we create created only</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:26:44">  took about 20 years to pass</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:26:47"> the Ottoman  worldwide automobile bid industry</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:26:50"> and it  didn't come from incrementalism</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:26:53"> so there</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:26:56">  so a lot of it is just not these</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:26:59"> guys  not being able to call a spade a spade  they</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:27:2"> have a nice view of themselves and  they</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:27:5"> think of themselves as you know  hard-nosed business people but</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:27:8"> in fact  they're playing it safe and</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:27:11"> because of  their lack of try</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:27:14">anything that they don't think they  understand</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:27:17"> and because they don't really  understand Science and Technology they</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:27:20">  have no idea what the process actually</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:27:23">is and so they tend to want to be the  third or fourth person on their</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:27:26"> block to  do something they're hoping somebody</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:27:29">  else will do something and they have  zillions</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:27:32"> of words  I'm not saying Fujitsu does this but I'm</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:27:35">  saying it's typical of companies - it's</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:27:38">like the thing I said about change  everybody talks</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:27:41">gonna change this we're gonna have a  better process and all</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:27:44"> the stuff but in  the end when</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:27:47"> it comes down to am I gonna  change</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:27:50"> am I am</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:27:53"> I gonna go against  something I'm a my going to risk my  identity</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:27:56"> my house mortgage</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:27:59"> and so what  we call</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:28:2"> middle managers disease at Xerox  PARC was people</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:28:5"> who had gotten to the  stage where they're wearing more about  their house mortgage</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:28:8"> than what their  actual job was and</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:28:11"> I was leaking into  their job so</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:28:14"> I mean Taylor had a million  ways of getting around this</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:28:17"> and part of  it</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:28:20"> was the got himself fired</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:28:23"> even after  our greatest successes and</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:28:26">couple years later he got the National  Medal of Technology</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:28:29">  so Xerox was just</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:28:32">  and the irony was of course that Xerox</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:28:35">was that kind of company itself in the  50s</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:28:38"> but by the time we got to the early</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:28:41">  70s the original fireplugs</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:28:44"> had died</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:28:47"> Joe  Wilson had died these</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:28:50"> guys were just  like us if you go back to look at</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:28:53"> these  guys when IBM wouldn't</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:28:56"> accept the  prototype of the 914</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:28:59"> these guys were so  and</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:29:2"> there's a whole bunch of interesting  funny stuff</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:29:5"> with consulting companies in  IBM not wanting to</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:29:8"> dip in and delay of a  year and a half</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:29:11"> and something like this  and these guys are just so pissed off  that</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:29:14"> they use their life insurance in</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:29:17">  their house their own house mortgages to</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:29:20">  get the loans to build the first</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:29:23">  factories for the 914 of</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:29:26"> course they  became incredibly rich</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:29:29"> because you</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:29:32"> know  they had a there were no really no VCS</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:29:35">  that but these guys have risked every</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:29:38">damn thing they have because they knew  they had and they invented</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:29:41"> geography  twice the</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:29:44"> first first time around they  invented offset printing that</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:29:47"> was done  in the early 50s so</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:29:50"> these guys were just  fantastic guys</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:29:53"> but you know a decade  later Xerox is the fastest</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:29:56"> growing  company in the US and etc etc all of</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:29:59">sudden things were very different there  was a more of a caretaker</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:30:2"> management in  there and they had a lot of words</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:30:5"> but  one of the secrets to Xerox</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:30:8"> PARC were  was a certain agreement</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:30:11"> a hard agreement</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:30:14">  that Taylor had made with Xerox</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:30:17"> before  agreeing to set up this lab that</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:30:20">prevented</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:30:23"> Xerox from actually permuting  any</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:30:26"> of the research there for the first  five years and</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:30:29"> that is when we got most  of our stuff done and they</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:30:32"> signed that  agreement thinking Taylor would never</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:30:35">  use it he had to use it several times in  that first</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:30:38"> five you sit permuting you  mean messing</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:30:41"> with basically in any way</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:30:44">  zero and</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:30:47"> that was part of Taylor's sales  pitch too because</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:30:50"> none of us wanted to  work for a company yeah we're all by</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:30:53"> the  way I was the oldest person there</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:30:56"> as an  actual researcher I was 30</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:30:59">  Taylor the older people</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:31:2"> who were our  mentors Taylor hired as advisors there's</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:31:5">  an advisory board Butler Lampson was</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:31:8"> 27  Chuck</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:31:11"> was probably 26 Peter deutsches 25  or 24</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:31:14"> I'm gonna suck it out cuz you're  making me feel</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:31:17"> bad well but I mean this  is Taylor's theory</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:31:20"> right Taylor I paid  for all of our PhDs and</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:31:23"> and he knew the  ones</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:31:26"> who had really drunk the kool-aid  you</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:31:29"> know that that group of people just</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:31:32">  burned and</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:31:35"> we know we didn't get paid  that much but we</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:31:38"> burned to do this and  the problems the ARPA funding</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:31:41"> was going  away and so Taylor convinced</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:31:44"> us that  Xerox was the place</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:31:47"> we could finish up  the grand dream</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:31:50"> there and he had</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:31:53"> this  insulation and</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:31:56">you know as an</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:31:59"> he was lucky hugely lucky  that there</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:32:2"> was a downturn in business  and the</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:32:5"> berkeley computer company  corporation that butler</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:32:8"> and chuck  another two guys on the wall</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:32:11"> there had</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:32:14">  set up to do a system that failed  because</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:32:17"> of the financial thing and  taylor got the entire company which</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:32:20"> is  about nine incredible people that's</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:32:23"> when  I decided to stay cuz I was consulting  for</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:32:26"> the Taylor at that time and I</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:32:29">going to go to Carnegie to try and do a  personal computer</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:32:32"> with Gordon Bell and  man when those guys came in</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:32:35"> I realized  oh now we can do anything these</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:32:38"> guys can  do anything and so</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:32:41"> I just called up  Carnegie and you know got out</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:32:44"> of my  agreement there and thankfully</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:32:47"> they  forgave me after a while</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:32:50"> but I knew it  was just going to be</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:32:53"> super special even  when we had</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:32:56"> we only had about 12 people  here starting off but we</subtitle>

<subtitle id="0:32:59"> had 12 really  really good people</subtitle>